I Can Not Respect A God who Allows Children to Suffer

[Smoke]

Even after surrendering my free will I retain my free will, for the surrendering is on ongoing process. I am consistently good, yet I have yet to become completely good for at times I waiver in my surrendering of my free will.

Free will and goodness do exist together. Choosing to be good is an act of free will.

God does wish for us to have both free will and goodness, for he gave us free will, and provides instructions on how to be good.

In that case, we're back where we started. If you can have free will and be good, then why didn't God make us good, with free will?
If we were sufficiently good, we could have free will and yet always do good. So why didn't God make us that way?

 

[LyricalDutchess]

In that case, we're back where we started. If you can have free will and be good, then why didn't God make us good, with free will?
If we were sufficiently good, we could have free will and yet always do good. So why didn't God make us that way?

He did. But He gave us the choice to be bad. And many of us make that choice.

 

[Beta]

Even if we are responsible for all the evil in the world, so what? If God so created us that we would cause all this evil, the ultimate responsibility is still his.

The point is that man was not created with evil in him (though evil was in the world) but that mankind acquired the tendencies of evil by listening and following satan/serpent instead of obeying God his Creator.
Man was not created with a fixed Mind - free choice allows us to go either way , that of obedience or disobedience to God .When we do things wrong we can not expect right and good results and is entirely our own fault for choosing the wrong way. God is blameless of human suffering. We make the wrong choice (against God's commandments) and the responsibility is ours.

 

[Smoke]

He did. But He gave us the choice to be bad. And many of us make that choice.

If we choose evil, then he didn't make us sufficiently good.
If he had made us better, we'd choose good.

 

[Peacewise]

Come on mate, surely you get that being good is a choice - an expression of free will.

To my understanding of the situation we cannot be made good, for being made good implies no choice and since being good is a choice then without choice we are not good.

 

[Smoke]

The point is that man was not created with evil in him (though evil was in the world) but that mankind acquired the tendencies of evil by listening and following satan/serpent instead of obeying God his Creator.
Man was not created with a fixed Mind - free choice allows us to go either way , that of obedience or disobedience to God .When we do things wrong we can not expect right and good results and is entirely our own fault for choosing the wrong way. God is blameless of human suffering. We make the wrong choice (against God's commandments) and the responsibility is ours.

That doesn't answer the question. Why did God make us so that we would choose to listen to the serpent instead of to him? If he had made us good, then we would have used our free will to follow God instead of the serpent.

And how did the serpent become evil? Why did God make the serpent in such a way that it would choose evil?

 

[Smoke]

Come on mate, surely you get that being good is a choice - an expression of free will.

To my understanding of the situation we cannot be made good, for being made good implies no choice and since being good is a choice then without choice we are not good.

I'm talking about being created good, not being forced to do good. There's no reason God couldn't have created us good. Then we would have used our free will to choose good. We would still have had the same choice, but we'd have chosen better.

 

[LyricalDutchess]

If we choose evil, then he didn't make us sufficiently good.
If he had made us better, we'd choose good.

Its sounds good. But we want to blame God for our own downfalls. Thing is, we come into this world as babies. Where we can grow and learn whats right and wrong. When we become of the age of accountability, time to stop taking responsibility for our own actions.

If babies arent sufficiently good, then i dont know what is. LOL

Thats exactly why the bible says we are to train up a child in the way they should go. So they will learn to choose good over evil.

 

[Smoke]

Its sounds good. But we want to blame God for our own downfalls. Thing is, we come into this world as babies. Where we can grow and learn whats right and wrong. When we become of the age of accountability, time to stop taking responsibility for our own actions.

If babies arent sufficiently good, then i dont know what is. LOL

Why are babies good? Are they unselfish and virtuous? Do they choose to do good?

 

[Beta]

In that case, we're back where we started. If you can have free will and be good, then why didn't God make us good, with free will?
If we were sufficiently good, we could have free will and yet always do good. So why didn't God make us that way?

God did not want Robots with no will of our own.
It is an awesome privilege to have free will and be trusted to use it in the right direction. God was taking a risk giving us this opportunity but to make man in his own likeness (God himself has free will) he could not reduce man to a robotic existence. Besides God came up with various ways throughout history to help us make correct choices. God always does all he can to help us but we need to believe , accept and obey.

 

[Smoke]

God did not want Robots with no will of our own.
It is an awesome privilege to have free will and be trusted to use it in the right direction. God was taking a risk giving us this opportunity but to make man in his own likeness (God himself has free will) he could not reduce man to a robotic existence. Besides God came up with various ways throughout history to help us make correct choices. God always does all he can to help us but we need to believe , accept and obey.

Nobody said anything about robots or not having free will.

Do you agree that it's possible to be good?
Do you agree that it's possible to choose good?

 

[Peacewise]

I'm talking about being created good, not being forced to do good. There's no reason God couldn't have created us good. Then we would have used our free will to choose good. We would still have had the same choice, but we'd have chosen better.

To the best of my understanding if one is created good then one is forced to be good and therefore has no free will.

I maintain that without free will one cannot have the opportunity to be good.

 

[Beta]

Why are babies good? Are they unselfish and virtuous? Do they choose to do good?

Babies have no sin until they start to absorb human ways which are sinful. WE adults bear responsibility for that wheter we are conscious of that fact or not. Not all parents have Godly traits to teach their children .

 

[Smoke]

I maintain that without free will one cannot have the opportunity to be good.

I agree with that, so let's go back to this:

To the best of my understanding if one is created good then one is forced to be good and therefore has no free will.

Are you saying that before you can be good, you must be not-good? That is, you must either be evil, or neither evil nor good, before you can be good?

 

[dust1n]

To the best of my understanding if one is created good then one is forced to be good and therefore has no free will.

I maintain that without free will one cannot have the opportunity to be good.

Then if one is created good or evil, would one not be forced to do either good or evil?

 

[Smoke]

Babies have no sin until they start to absorb human ways which are sinful. WE adults bear responsibility for that wheter we are conscious of that fact or not. Not all parents have Godly traits to teach their children .

Why are human ways sinful, though? You're just dancing around the question.

 

[Smoke]

Okay, we have two different ideas of what it means to be good.

Peacewise says that to be good, one must choose good.

Beta says that it's not necessary to choose good to be good; all that's necessary is not choosing evil.

 

[Beta]

To the best of my understanding if one is created good then one is forced to be good and therefore has no free will.

I maintain that without free will one cannot have the opportunity to be good.

You are quite right. Had man been created good he could not have been otherwise.
When scripture says that everything God created was good he referred to the material/physical creation - not our Mind or character. I believe that side was completely neutral in order for man to exercise his free choice hence the 2 trees. Satan was in the forbidden tree and God's character in the tree of Life .

 

[Beta]

Okay, we have two different ideas of what it means to be good.

Peacewise says that to be good, one must choose good.

Beta says that it's not necessary to choose good to be good; all that's necessary is not choosing evil.

I don't think I quite said that friend since scripture says to choose the good and hate evil. Not choosing evil automatically means choosing good without having to specify it ??? I assumed that was understood. :sorry1: for any misunderstanding.

 

[Beta]

Why are human ways sinful, though? You're just dancing around the question.

Because human ways are after the influence of satan and suffering and are the opposite of God's ways which are good and rewarding. There is no dancing around for those who accept God's GOOD WILL in their lives. :rainbow1: