I Can Not Respect A God who Allows Children to Suffer

[dust1n]

OK Mike, I don't usually go here, this is just my opinion but for the sake of intellectual argument, I'm going to give it a whirl.

First off, you are grounded in this life. You believe this little time on earth is all you have. God is keeping his hand out of this time for the sake of fairness with his wager with the Devil.

God has a gambling problem? And why exactly is this human's reasoning for suffering?

This is the classic case of good vs. evil. An experiment would be a good example.

Classic case of good vs. evil? Like the Lion King?

The Devil is allowed to control all of the variables while God stays out of it to prove a point to the Devil. This is an old score that started when Satan left Heaven with 1/3 of the arch angels.

The time we each spend here on earth is but one grain of sand on the beach compared to spending eternity with God in Heaven.

It certainly doesn't seem like one grain of sand from this perspective. Seems more like a lifetime.. a whole beach, if you will.

Granted, if god was all loving and all powerful, either he doesn't want to stop suffering, or he can't.

What is done to us here on earth is of no consequence compared to what we will receive later.

Eternal suffering?

I believe God stays out of things here on earth to give the devil complete control of the variables in this experiment of good vs evil. I believe he is all powerful and already knows the final outcome of this experiment and this is only an exercise to prove once and for all to the devil who is really has the ultimate control at this moment in time.

LOL. I must have been the die that landed on snake eyes; along with 4 billion other people and countless that already left Earth.

You see I believe the Devil is a deceiver and is so good at what he does, that he has even deceived himself into believing he can conquer God.

So why did God make him?

 

[Peacewise]

That entire analogy is completely fallacious, since parents aren't omnimax beings. We don't have the alleged powers god has over our children.

Thanks for the response. The analogy is reasonable. I could make a child do anything I wish by forcing them, by beating them, by persuading them, by coercing them or any number of a variety of ways, for sake of this discussion and each of those ways has a consequence.

The alleged powers of god as an omnimax being are LIMITED by God's own choice to give us free will - his own omnimax powers He has chosen to limit by providing free will and likewise how he interacts with the universe is limited by his choice. God is responsible for giving us free will and the consequences of that, and likewise we are responsible for how we express our free will and the consequences of our decisions.

Whilst the question of things that occur that are not to do with our free will is also worthwhile considering, and to my very limited knowledge it seems that when knowledge and sin entered into the world through adam and eve's choice to express their free will by eating an apple this had the consequence of affecting the earth. Protected in the garden humanity was cast out due to our desire of knowledge and so we became faced with the consequences of our knowledge, namely earthquakes and other natural disasters.

The key concept to understand is not that God can do anything, which He can, but that God is bound by His own word and so limits himself.

Being omnimax does not mean God is exempt from consequences, imo, afterall he created the consequences of the universe in the first place, so he is consistent in Limiting himself by first accepting the consequences of how he made us and the universe and is consistent in his revelation that when we follow his laws we function best.

 

[Caladan]

I consider the explanation for the problem of evil using free will to be an ignorant one, but even if it were true, many innocent people, including children and non-human animals suffer as a result of things not caused by the free will of humans.

Babies were partially crushed and suffocated in collapsed buildings in Haity recently. A God who could allow such a thing is a horrific character IMO, and one to whom I could ever show any respect, no matter the consequences.

How do you justify worshipping a God who allegedly allows this?

How do you justify dressing natural phenomena on an alleged god?
I have a question, have you been a Christian at some point of your life?

 

[Smoke]

It really isnt. Because my previous suffering has resulted in my strong character. Had it not happened, i doubt i would have turned out the way i am. It forced me see some thing more clearly and faster than i would have had i not. And i also see that my suffering has helped many get through the same thing i did. Because they see how i pressed through, it gives them the strength to do the same. And i wouldnt change that for anything.

Suffering is hard to go through. Its hard to witness. But how you choose to let it shape you can make it good or bad. What the devil meant for evil, because I allow Him to work through and in me, God has always turned it out for my good.

My Uncle John died of whooping cough complicated by pneumonia at the age of 51 days. How did his suffering make him a better person?

There is a connection between sin and fearing God. Had God destroyed satan, none would want that fate. So they would have served Him out of fear.

Isn't that exactly what a lot of people do? Isn't that what preachers often encourage them to do, threatening them with hellfire and eternal separation from God if they don't do as they're told?

The alleged powers of god as an omnimax being are LIMITED by God's own choice to give us free will - his own omnimax powers He has chosen to limit by providing free will

Wouldn't it have been possible for him to give a good will that was still free? Is it ever possible to achieve a good will? Will there be sin in heaven? If it's not possible to have both a free will and a good will, then there must be sin in heaven, and eternity will ring with the evil deeds of the saved and sanctified, all because God wishes us to have free will. On the other hand, if it is ever possible to be both free and good, there's no reason God couldn't have made us so in the beginning.

and likewise how he interacts with the universe is limited by his choice.

That's not an explanation; that's just restating the problem.

 

[Peacewise]

Wouldn't it have been possible for him to give a good will that was still free?

If there is no choice between good and evil, then there is no free will.

Is it ever possible to achieve a good will?

Yes.

Will there be sin in heaven?

I don't know.

If it's not possible to have both a free will and a good will, then there must be sin in heaven, and eternity will ring with the evil deeds of the saved and sanctified, all because God wishes us to have free will. On the other hand, if it is ever possible to be both free and good, there's no reason God couldn't have made us so in the beginning.

It is possible to have good will and free will, a person who desires this expresses their free will by being good.
God did make us that way, for we can choose to be good.

Interesting enough for Christian goodness one surrenders their free will to God and seeks to live by the laws that God has laid out. Hence a surrendering of a persons free will to God is an act of liberation and goodness. This may seem paradoxical yet truly it is not.

 

[Smoke]

It is possible to have good will and free will, a person who desires this expresses their free will by being good.
God did make us that way, for we can choose to be good.

Why didn't God choose to make us good? That is, to make us such that we would want to be good and choose to be good?

Interesting enough for Christian goodness one surrenders their free will to God and seeks to live by the laws that God has laid out. Hence a surrendering of a persons free will to God is an act of liberation and goodness. This may seem paradoxical yet truly it is not.

If it's so important for us to have free will, why does God make it necessary for us to surrender it?

 

[Peacewise]

Why didn't God choose to make us good? That is, to make us such that we would want to be good and choose to be good?


If it's so important for us to have free will, why does God make it necessary for us to surrender it?

If there is no choice between good and evil, then there is no free will. answers your first two questions.

and the following is my attempt at your last question in that above quote.

God knows what is best for us, because he designed us and the universe and hence surrendering our free will to God enables us and requires us to follow his Laws and those Laws are designed to guide us in living to our peak potential.

 

[Smoke]

If there is no choice between good and evil, then there is no free will. answers your first two questions.

I don't think you're understanding what I'm asking. Why couldn't God have made us good, so that having a choice between good and evil, we would choose good? Can God make us good? Or are even the saved in heaven destined to fall one by one into the outer darkness as their evil separates them from God?

God knows what is best for us, because he designed us and the universe and hence surrendering our free will to God enables us and requires us to follow his Laws and those Laws are designed to guide us in living to our peak potential.

Then it seems that free will isn't so important after all. It is, according to this plan, a hindrance to our achieving our full potential.

 

[Peacewise]

I don't think you're understanding what I'm asking. Why couldn't God have made us good, so that having a choice between good and evil, we would choose good? Can God make us good? Or are even the saved in heaven destined to fall one by one into the outer darkness as their evil separates them from God?


Then it seems that free will isn't so important after all. It is, according to this plan, a hindrance to our achieving our full potential.

If God made us good, then we would have no free choice.
Free will is fundamental to the plan, for without it we cannot choose to be good.

 

[Smoke]

If God made us good, then we would have no free choice.
Free will is fundamental to the plan, for without it we cannot choose to be good.

If God wishes us to have free will, and to be good is to be without free will, then God does not wish us to be good.

 

[Peacewise]

God has given us free will and when we surrender our free will to him we are good.

 

[dust1n]

God has given us free will and when we surrender our free will to him we are good.

Why exactly is surrendering your free will to god mean?

 

[Smoke]

God has given us free will and when we surrender our free will to him we are good.

Have you surrendered your free will? Do you still have a choice whether to do good or evil?

 

[Peacewise]

I have surrendered however I still waiver too often.

I'm on that path that is an acceptance that I know not much at all and that there is plenty of wisdom and knowledge in a wide variety of fields that I simply have to accept OR work it out for myself. Perhaps in truth the working it out for myself is also accepting it! It's not that I will blindly follow someone else, it's that I can and do trust someone who knows better. I don't turn off my reasoning or questioning but will accept that there are things I do not understand and that I must seek understanding if it is understanding that I desire, whereas if I am content to follow then I will do so.

Yes I still have a choice to do good or evil.
I confidently assume that the surrendering is not a one time event, but is instead an ongoing journey.

 

[Beta]

I have read some of the posts causing disagreement and accusations which are normal human reactions. May I be allowed to give my viewpoint on human suffering ?
It seems quite evident that man can not find the reason this is allowed by God. Why don't we ask Him ?
Ex.20v9 , 6 days (or 6000 years one day for a thousand year principle 2Pet.3v8) shall you labour and do all your own work. This period of time (now 6000 years since Adam) was given to MANKIND to live as they see fit -
and what we see in the world today (all the suffering and injustice) are the results of human actions and our failure to live up to GOD's requirements and commands.
Why has God allowed this state to develop and go on ?
It is to let us see what evil we are capable of doing things our own way. We seemingly have not reached the full measure of evil yet as prophecies predict. Many are not yet prepared to call on God for help and they too have to experience tribulations to show them the evils of man.
How else could they be saved if they don't see and acknowledge the errors and wrongdoings of man ? The proof of human failure has already been in the world for thousands of years but man in his ignorance has blamed God for it. The longer this blindness the longer suffering until the allotted time is up.

 

[Smoke]

Yes I still have a choice to do good or evil.
I confidently assume that the surrendering is not a one time event, but is instead an ongoing journey.

So, you still have a choice because you have not completely surrendered your free will. And because you have not completely surrendered your free will, you are not yet consistently good.
Only when you have completely surrendered your free will will you be consistently good.
If this is true, free will and goodness cannot exist together, and God cannot wish for us both to have free will and to be good.

 

[dust1n]

So, you still have a choice because you have not completely surrendered your free will. And because you have not completely surrendered your free will, you are not yet consistently good.
Only when you have completely surrendered your free will will you be consistently good.
If this is true, free will and goodness cannot exist together, and God cannot wish for us both to have free will and to be good.

It came down to a coin toss.

 

[Smoke]

I have read some of the posts causing disagreement and accusations which are normal human reactions. May I be allowed to give my viewpoint on human suffering ?
It seems quite evident that man can not find the reason this is allowed by God. Why don't we ask Him ?
Ex.20v9 , 6 days (or 6000 years one day for a thousand year principle 2Pet.3v8) shall you labour and do all your own work. This period of time (now 6000 years since Adam) was given to MANKIND to live as they see fit -
and what we see in the world today (all the suffering and injustice) are the results of human actions and our failure to live up to GOD's requirements and commands.
Why has God allowed this state to develop and go on ?
It is to let us see what evil we are capable of doing things our own way. We seemingly have not reached the full measure of evil yet as prophecies predict. Many are not yet prepared to call on God for help and they too have to experience tribulations to show them the evils of man.
How else could they be saved if they don't see and acknowledge the errors and wrongdoings of man ? The proof of human failure has already been in the world for thousands of years but man in his ignorance has blamed God for it. The longer this blindness the longer suffering until the allotted time is up.

Even if we are responsible for all the evil in the world, so what? If God so created us that we would cause all this evil, the ultimate responsibility is still his.

 

[Peacewise]

So, you still have a choice because you have not completely surrendered your free will. And because you have not completely surrendered your free will, you are not yet consistently good.
Only when you have completely surrendered your free will will you be consistently good.
If this is true, free will and goodness cannot exist together, and God cannot wish for us both to have free will and to be good.

Even after surrendering my free will I retain my free will, for the surrendering is on ongoing process. I am consistently good, yet I have yet to become completely good for at times I waiver in my surrendering of my free will.

Free will and goodness do exist together. Choosing to be good is an act of free will.

God does wish for us to have both free will and goodness, for he gave us free will, and provides instructions on how to be good.

 

[LyricalDutchess]

Most of the replies to my comments have been im not referring to the suffering the topic speaks on.

Well, it does. I was raped by my uncle from the age of 6-15. And when that finally stopped, got raped prom night. Many have asked me how can i believe in a God that would allow that to happen to me. I felt that way for a very long time. i hated God for it. But it came to a point where God showed me that He was there for me all the time. And although it was a horrific period in my life, i wouldnt turn back time to change it. Because i finally took my tragedy and made it into a testimony. And when I gave God my hurt, He turned what the devil meant to destroy me into good. Because i can now help others through the same thing.