strikeviperMKII
Well-Known Member
You're making the same mistake that Adam and Eve did. You're blaming the ball for breaking the window, even though you're the one holding the bat.
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"I . . . CREATE EVIL" But why?
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
You're making the same mistake that Adam and Eve did. You're blaming the ball for breaking the window, even though you're the one holding the bat.
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
I'd say that's totally inaccurate: God is the one holding the bat.
Eliot Wild
Irreverent Agnostic Jerk
Can a being, entity, agent, or whatever we want to call ourselves--however we want to refer to this creature 'man'--can we be said to truly be 'free' if we don't have the option to choose 'evil'?
There are many who believe we have no freewill to begin with, that all our thoughts and actions are merely the products of a cause-and-effect universe running smoothely along with an imminent precision more perfect than anything man himself could devise.
But for now let's assume, at least for the purposes of this particular question, that we do have limited freewill.
We may not have the material freedom to perform any and all manner of physical actions. For example, no matter how hard I try I will never be able to willfully transport myself to Saturn for a close-up view of its pretty rings. But for the purposes of this debate, let's assume I am capable of willfully choosing between right and wrong, cruelty and charity, love and indifference, good and 'evil'.
Oh, and we must also assume that God exists. (I know, I'm asking everyone to assume a lot.)
Why did God create evil? Because He wanted to give us the option to defy him. If I go into a Baskin Robbins and they only have 30 Flavors available for me to choose from, then I'm jumpin' somebody's ascot, 'cause there's supposed to 31 freakin' flavors as an option there, right?
God had to create evil, the 31st flavor, so he wouldn't have people jumpin' his ascot.
Of course, I could have made this whole thing up, Skwim. Bwuhahaha . . . and maybe God and freewill aren't even real.
There are many who believe we have no freewill to begin with, that all our thoughts and actions are merely the products of a cause-and-effect universe running smoothely along with an imminent precision more perfect than anything man himself could devise.
But for now let's assume, at least for the purposes of this particular question, that we do have limited freewill.
We may not have the material freedom to perform any and all manner of physical actions. For example, no matter how hard I try I will never be able to willfully transport myself to Saturn for a close-up view of its pretty rings. But for the purposes of this debate, let's assume I am capable of willfully choosing between right and wrong, cruelty and charity, love and indifference, good and 'evil'.
Oh, and we must also assume that God exists. (I know, I'm asking everyone to assume a lot.)
Why did God create evil? Because He wanted to give us the option to defy him. If I go into a Baskin Robbins and they only have 30 Flavors available for me to choose from, then I'm jumpin' somebody's ascot, 'cause there's supposed to 31 freakin' flavors as an option there, right?
God had to create evil, the 31st flavor, so he wouldn't have people jumpin' his ascot.
Of course, I could have made this whole thing up, Skwim. Bwuhahaha . . . and maybe God and freewill aren't even real.
strikeviperMKII
Well-Known Member
I'm sure you would. Put the blame on God and you don't have to do anything but complain. Put the blame on you, and you have to do something.
Much easier to do the former than the latter, wouldn't you agree?
How could Adam not know what it meant to disobey when he was plainly told you eat, you die?
'Saved' does not mean once saved always saved.
Genuine Christians are in a 'saved' condition or state, but the Christian that endures [faithful] to the end is the one that in the end is: saved. -Matt 24v13.
Endure to the end would mean: either endure faithful to the end of your life or endure faithful until Jesus takes the action of Matthew 25vs31,32.
The 'sheep' living at that time can be physically 'saved alive' right into the start of Jesus 1000-year reign over earth will the prospect of having everlasting life in view right here on a paradisaic earth. In other words, they have the hope of never having to die but to keep on living forever.
Human physical creation has always been [and will be] limited by the material physical world.
Adam, even he was obedient, Adam would still have to eat and breathe to remain alive.
Adam was created as a: free moral agent.
God forces no one to follow him or his Son.
What Scripture is saying is God's Golden Rule way is the best way.
If all on earth today lived by the Golden Rule what would earth be like?
What would earth be like if all live by Jesus new commandment of John 13vs34,35 ?
In Scripture evil is not always synonymous with wrongdoing.
There will be an evil day of calamity for the wicked of Psalm 92v7.
strikeviperMKII
Well-Known Member
Adam had no idea what 'die' meant. God saying that to him was like me saying 'if you eat purple Popsicles on Tuesday, you'll fugastable.'
Do you have any idea what that means? No? Adam had no conception of the concept of 'death', and he wasn't supposed to. If he did, there would have been no point in God telling him that he would die.
The person who wrote this was trying to keep people from thinking that they only have to 'believe' in Jesus to be saved. You are correct, being saved isn't something you just 'get'. It is something you have to work for.
Enduring, however, is not God saying 'well, I just want to see how much you can take and if you bear it long enough, you can get into heaven.'
Which is what you say here:
You're inflicting a great deal of hardship on yourself for basically nothing. But that's your choice.
Again, we can do that now. We don't have to wait for Jesus' thousand year reign to live forever.
How are you going to live forever? Do you know anyone of perfect health?
As a child did you ever step on a bug?
Didn't you notice that the dead bug no longer lived?
So, if a child can observe what death is, why couldn't Adam?
strikeviperMKII
Well-Known Member
Eliot Wild
Irreverent Agnostic Jerk
How can you be sure the 'human physical creation' will always be limited by the material physical world? What makes you believe you have such insight into the future? I really am curious to read your thoughts on this matter.
It seems to me you have presupposed a lot. For starters, even if I were to concede that God exists, I still don't see how you personally can know the future of mankind and what God has in store for us.
This is my one of my larger problems with the 'religious'. Most of you presume far too much, or so it seems to me. I am certainly no Biblical expert myself, but from what I have read, I don't recall any guarantees from God that man would never be able to overcome his current physical limitations. As a matter of fact, doesn't it say that no man knows when the end is coming. If that be true, then the END may actually be a helluva long time off, and by the time it gets here humankind may have developed to a point that we can overcome our current physical limitations, thereby given us even more material freedom to go along with our freedom of thought, inspiration, desire and imagination.
Yes. I would assume so, since it is Biblically asserted that he was a man. I don't understand the relevance of this point, however, in constrast to my previous post, wherein I essentially said as much.
But thanks for stressing the point that I already made with Biblical validation, even though I don't see how it is really needed. I think it is pretty obvious, or it should be, to everyone reading and interacting in this thread that mankind, including Adam if he was one of us, are constrained by certain physical limitations, restricting our physical freedom but not our imaginations and/or our thoughts and/or our moral will, our will to do that which is right or wrong.
Again, I thought I said as much in my previous post. Let me rehash my earlier statements, in case I wasn't clear: Since the OP asked why did God create evil, I said that perhaps for humans to be truly free as God wanted, we required the option to choose 'evil'. Since Adam is a man, falling under the rules of conformity, he would also be subject to this proposition.
I have no idea. I don't have the power to see the future or know the results of alternate realities and the 'what if's' that might accompany those alternative realities. I would assume if everyone lived by the 'Golden Rule', which as I understand it is to 'do unto others as you would have done unto you', then I would assume the world would be a better place. But if you want specifics, such as do I think there would be no more war and cruelty, no murder or crime of any kind even, or would there be flowers blooming all year long in everyone's yard and we'd all be millionaires or at least each and everyone would get our shot at being the next 'American Idol', I have absolutely no idea.
And furthermore I find your question to be rhetorically out of place and ultimately unanwerable without consulting an omniscient creature. You appear to be asking me to engage in crazy speculation and presumption everbit as wild and unfounded as your own. No thanks.
Okay, whatever. Are you saying that God did not create the type of 'evil' that is synonymous with wrongdoing? God DID create 'evil', for the Bible tells me so, as the OP clearly indicates. But are you saying that God didn't create the kind of 'evil' that murders, rapes and pillages. He only created the kind that wreaks calamity on the wicked?
I simply would ask for purposes of clarity that you please expound on your claim here, that evil is not synonymous with 'wrongdoing'. Because anyway I look it, it seems to me 'evil' is still something we wouldn't want to see around us, kind of like Helen Thomas in a bikini.
On second thought, nevermind. You have officially reminded me why I couldn't care less what the Bible says about most anything.
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
It is. But that has nothing to do with whether I'm right or not.
strikeviperMKII
Well-Known Member
Keep thinking that. See where it gets you.
What was meant by humans always being limited by the physical/material world is that Adam was created from the material world and his life was dependent not only on obeying God but as a human Adam would have to continue to breathe and eat and drink and sleep, etc. in order to retain a perfectly healthy sound mind and body, but not restricted in 'wholesome' imagination, thought or morals. Adam, gifted as a free moral agent, would have 'relative freedom' under what God said was proper.
Perfect Adam had a perfect heart that would lean toward human perfection. Unlike us who now lean toward imperfection. Adam could only deliberately choose to do wrong on purpose not by mistake.
Philippians 4v8 does say what type of things one should focus one's mind.
Adam was not self contained. Adam was not offered immortality [life from within/ indestructible] but he was offered everlasting life.
Eternal life meaning dependent or conditional life on other forces besides self.
_____________________________________
Not personally know, but know from what the Scriptures teach about the happy climax of Revelation in connection with the other Bible books.
_______________________________________
As far as the end of badness on earth, we do not know day or hour, but we know the season.
Jesus gave the illustration that when we see buds we know summer is near.
So when we see badness filling the earth we know the end of all badness is also near. Along with all the bad news that we see and hear reported about men's kingdoms, Jesus also said along with global badness mankind would also hear about the solution being found in the good news of God's kingdom.
-Matt 24v14,32; Daniel 2v44; 7vs13,14
_______________________________________
God will use 'calamity as in an evil day for the wicked' when the words from Jesus mouth will be as sharp as an executioner's sword against his enemies.
-Isaiah 11v4; Rev 19vs11,14,15.
The result will be as Psalm 46v9 says God is the one who will make wars to stop from one end of the earth to the other end.
Isaiah and Micah both wrote the nations will turn war weapons into farming equipment and not lift up sword.
Each person will have own vine and fig tree and no one will make another fearful.
-Isaiah 2v4; Micah 4vs3,4
_______________________________________
God forces no one to 'care' but he does want everyone warned [righteous and wicked] before he takes the action as described in Scripture.
- Ezekiel 3vs18-21
_______________________________________
Don't you think that with backing the United Nations can be strengthened to turn on the religious world? ________
Christendom [so-called Christianity] especially claims to follow Christ yet has run afoul playing false to God and Christ. In the past when God's people played false to him, then God allowed calamity [evil] to befall them from the political/military world.
So, it will be no surprise when God uses the political/military 'ax', so to speak, against today's false religious world before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, ushers in Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill.
-Rev 17v2; 18vs7,8
We are speaking on two different levels.
Level one is:__________
Level two is:__________
strikeviperMKII
Well-Known Member
JustWondering
Jerk
We are material beings. When our bodies give out we die. There is no evidence that we have some kind of indestructable soul that will live forever. The concept of having a spirit/soul was born from wishful thinking IMO.
strikeviperMKII
Well-Known Member
Level one thinking still.
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
The problem is that the level one thinking leads to the conclusion that level two is nonsensical.
strikeviperMKII
Well-Known Member
I won't disagree with you there. Doesn't make level two useless, however.
jtartar
Well-Known Member
Skwim,
Very few Bibles say that God created evil, and these are older translations. The newer translations say that God created calamity. Even the New KJV says calamity.
The newer translations are founded on many older transcripts that have been found since the older translationd were made, and also on a better understanding of old Hebrew language.
When God says that He creates calamity He means that it will be calamity for the wicked ones, who just will not listen, even when shown favor, Isa 26:10, Jere 25:30,31.
There is no evil or wickedness in Jehovah God, the Creator of everything in heaven and on earth, Deut 32:4, Job 34:10,12. Notice 32:5 which says that man has acted ruinously on his OWN part, that the DEFECT is their own.
When you speak about God you are apeaking in ABSOLUTES, only God is absolutely anything, GOOD, Luke 18:18,19, WISE, Rom 16:27, LOYAL, Rev 15:4, Almighty, Rev 15:3. Every created thing is some degree lesser that God in every attribute.
Consider also James 1:13-15, which says that a man is drawn out and enticed by his OWN desire.
Everything that God made was very good, Gen 1:31. When a person decides to do something wrong in God's eyes, he is a SELFBORN sinner. This is a dictionary term.