I give up fighting Islamophobia

[faroukfarouk]

Which verse?

Very cunning but its really silly to quote me out of context.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Yet the oppression (and at times outright slaughter) of minorities is a reality across the Muslim world. In fact it is a demonstrably recurring pattern. And the instant that anyone makes this observation, they are inundated with examples from non-Muslim countries, as though the existence of these problems elsewhere excuses Islam. Or we're told that it is purely the result of Western intervention.

You just explained how apostasy should be punished. That's a red line for the vast majority of us: Theocracy is not legitimate. Period. We cannot peacefully co-exist with theocrats. It isn't what Muslims want to hear, I know; they want respect for their religion and they want us to affirm religious governments as legitimate. Well you can't have it. Not from the West, certainly, and not from most of the non-Muslim world outside of the West. Opposition to Islamic theocracy is a rare point of agreement.

I don't take these charges of Islamophobia seriously because I don't believe it, and I don't think that Islamic theocracies are legitimate or that we should respect them. They exist, we have to deal with them. But that's all. We should be constantly working to undermine them because they are dangerous. Don't blame the people who are willing to tell it like it is and cry victim or Islamophobia. Some of them at least care about the people who suffer under Islamist rule; there are plenty of people who are just happy to see Muslims focused on killing each other rather than killing us.

Intolerance is whats leads to a violent World.Now i beginning to wonder who created ISIS, Boko Haram and the rest of the terrorist networks.
Kill,kill,kill......divide and rule......

 

[Sees]

Hi farouk,

Well, I don't think you're going to like my summary of Surah 6

The vast majority of the Surah consists of claims (without evidence), that Allah is the all powerful creator. We also learn that Allah is (in human terms), egotistical and cruel. We are also reminded (again without real evidence), that the Quran is from Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's messenger.

There are some rules about how to slaughter animals and there are rules about what's okay to eat and what's not okay. These are rules, but I would NOT call them moral teachings.

Finally, after reading a whole bunch of threats about Allah sending non-believers to hell, we finally get to verse 151.

In this verse there are some moral teachings. But I have to say that civilized people knew all of these moral teachings long before the Quran was written, and they are mostly common sense. These moral reminders include:

- Be good to your parents.
- Don't kill your children if you're poor. (really? that needed to be pointed out?)
- Help orphans. (nice!)
- Be truthful (well, I'm being truthful, we'll see what happens)

Ok, that's my summary farouk, I await yours.

p.s. Anyone could have come along and written this Surah and claimed all the claims. But there is no actual evidence for these claims.

Good on ya for actually reading the whole thing. Its very repetitive nature gets real old, real quick. At least 10x the amount of words used than was necessary. It has the "need to say more but no idea what to say" feeling to it, in spades.

I'm surprised surah 6 was highlighted at all to show off the Qur'an

 

[Caligula]

I don't want to give up, but some of the stupidity of Islamophibia is really starting to **** me off. The way these people talk, you'd think I'd a been abducted, raped, and killed a million times over given that I've known several Muslims. Holy ****, the ones at school who speak Arabic to each other, I better watch out.

I used to live in a dubious neighborhood and I have two stories in particular that, coupled, could provide interesting.

1) One day I came back into the old neighborhood and met a childhood friend of mine, Marcel, who lived only two blocks away form were I used to live. We were extremely happy to see each other and decided to share memories in the presence of a beer (not in a bar but in the open). I was happy to see he was the same guy I knew, with lots of humor, positive attitude and a great deal of respect. A pleasant young lad, as always. While talking and laughing a guy I didn't knew crossed the street and Marcel suddenly changed his mood, to an recognizable state. His words: "Sorry to interrupt! Could you wait just a minute?". I said "no problem". He took a baseball bat out of the bushes and went straight to the guy. Marcel asked the guy to state his business in the neighborhood. I heard none of the responses that were given but I am sure they were not satisfactory for Marcel, as he plunged the baseball bat right on the back of the guy's head. The beating continued until the unfortunate one couldn't move and was left on the pavement, probably unconscious. Marcel came back to me and asked, while smiling: "Now where were we?".

2) I went on another neighborhood and got beaten by a guy because: "I hate people with glasses! They are troublemakers!". A couple of days later I found out the guy that beat me is a good friend with one of my class colleagues.
My colleague was shocked to hear the story and couldn't believe it because he knew the guy from childhood and he was a "sweetness of a guy that wouldn't do such a thing". We could say that this guy was "the Marcel" of a different neighborhood.

The two major lessons I've learned:
1) Never speak to an "outsider" from the "insider's" perspective (in such matters);
2) Try as much as possible to speak only for myself.

I have troubles in speaking and defending my family's actions or shouting out to the world what they are capable or not capable of doing. ...To be an advocate of an entire nation or for Muslims, Christians, Atheists, Liberals is unacceptable IMO. How on Earth would you know what people close to you are capable of, let alone strangers for which the only info you have is that they probably share with you some philosophical ideology?!

LE - my question to you: do you wear a yarmulke so that you found it necessarily to tell people that Muslims you've interacted with did no harm to you? Are you an insider or an outsider? Of course, the question goes both ways and could be addressed to those that feel the need to defend Jews.

 

[Augustus]

Very cunning but its really silly to quote me out of context.

I am just asking you the question of what specifically forbids the proselytisation of other faiths. It is a simple question.

Is it based on a specific Quranic verse? Yes/no If so, which ones?
Is it based on any specific hadiths? yes/no If so which ones?

 

[gsa]

Intolerance is whats leads to a violent World.Now i beginning to wonder who created ISIS, Boko Haram and the rest of the terrorist networks.
Kill,kill,kill......divide and rule......

Yes, that must be it: ISIS and Boko Haram are Western conspiracies to undermine Islam and divide and rule Muslims.

Tell me, is America responsible for every violent extremist who decapitates kafirs in the name of the religion of peace? Is there really nothing that can be attributed to internal failings of the religion and the cultures in which it is entwined?

 

[faroukfarouk]

I am just asking you the question of what specifically forbids the proselytisation of other faiths. It is a simple question.

Is it based on a specific Quranic verse? Yes/no If so, which ones?
Is it based on any specific hadiths? yes/no If so which ones?

Tell me who understands the Noble Quraan best?
You,me,Saladhin Ayubi or to the one that received the revelation?

 

[faroukfarouk]

Yes, that must be it: ISIS and Boko Haram are Western conspiracies to undermine Islam and divide and rule Muslims.

Tell me, is America responsible for every violent extremist who decapitates kafirs in the name of the religion of peace? Is there really nothing that can be attributed to internal failings of the religion and the cultures in which it is entwined?

Ask yourself was the US invasion legal or illegal?
What was its objective?
Was it worthwile?
What about Afghan?
1 trillion Dollars spent and you have war verterans begging in street corners.
Note i have nothing against Americans.They are very good people but there is a question mark over America's foreign policy.

 

[Augustus]

Tell me who understands the Noble Quraan best?
You,me,Saladhin Ayubi or to the one that received the revelation?

Do you get the concept of what a question is? I do not know what the justification for that law is. I am asking you in order to elicit an answer.

If you know the answer and are willing to share it, then I would appreciate it.

If you don't know the answer then just say so.

 

[Godobeyer]

In modern times, burning a mosque in the west is extremely rare. My honest guess would be that the ratio of churches being destroyed in Muslim majority countries vs. mosques being destroyed in the West would be something like: 1000 churches destroyed for every 1 mosque destroyed.

can you show us where/when these burned "1000" churches in modern Muslim. give us exemples

 

[Augustus]

can you show us where/when these burned "1000" churches in modern Muslim. give us exemples

Hard-Liners Cheer Destruction of Bekasi Church
Batak Church Demolished by Bekasi Government

"His remarks on Thursday afternoon came just a few hours after the public order agency, or Satpol PP, aided by a mob, broke up a planned Christmas morning service by the beleaguered GKI Yasmin congregation in Bogor.

The congregation, which has been locked out of its church since April 2010, intended to hold its Christmas service on the sidewalk outside the church, as it has done for the past four years, but was heckled and taunted by a mob claiming to be local residents.

Kalla Claims Tolerance as Bogor Threatens to Demolish Church - The Jakarta Globe

"Home Affairs Minister Gamawan Fauzi said last week that he was disheartened by “rumored” demands to close 20 churches in Aceh.
Last month, 16 storefront churches were shut down in the Aceh Singkil district amid demands from local Muslim groups.

Aceh Mob Targets Another Storefront Church - The Jakarta Globe

"Authorities have closed nine churches and six Buddhist temples in Banda Aceh in the last week, following mounting pressure from local Islamist groups, activists and church officials said on Sunday."

Aceh Shuts Down Buddhist Temples and Churches - The Jakarta Globe

 

[Godobeyer]

Let's take one important case. A hundred tears ago in Turkey, 20% of the population was Christian. Now 99.8% are Muslim.

As far as individual acts of violence are concerned - I agree that around the world non-Muslims are sometimes violent towards Muslims, and Muslims are sometimes violent towards non-Muslims. We just saw the case of 1400 children in England being abused by Muslims, so we have sad stories in both directions. This seems like a different topic though.

I was speaking about why I think theocracy is a bad idea, and one of the reasons is that traditionally, and in modern times, theocracies do not treat the minority religions well.

in Turkey may some of them convert to Islam?

1- I notice that you did not comment about 3 Muslims murdered in USA .
2- and hate acts against Muslims in West after 911 and Paris attacks
3- how about rally against Muslims in Germany ?

Hate in Europe: Germany's Anti-Islamic Protests
Hate in Europe: Germany's Anti-Islamic Protests | VICE News

so even in Modern Western countries there is abuse and rejection against Muslims residents.

then what about your claim about 1400 childern abused by Muslims .

 

[LuisDantas]

Tell me who understands the Noble Quraan best?
You,me,Saladhin Ayubi or to the one that received the revelation?

Any particular reason not to give a straight answer?

 

[LuisDantas]

The two major lessons I've learned:
1) Never speak to an "outsider" from the "insider's" perspective (in such matters);
2) Try as much as possible to speak only for myself.

I have troubles in speaking and defending my family's actions or shouting out to the world what they are capable or not capable of doing. ...To be an advocate of an entire nation or for Muslims, Christians, Atheists, Liberals is unacceptable IMO. How on Earth would you know what people close to you are capable of, let alone strangers for which the only info you have is that they probably share with you some philosophical ideology?!

While I can see where you are coming from, surely there is no way to attempt to meaningfully talk about nations or even civilization if we surrender to such a mindset, don't you think?

 

[LuisDantas]

The truth is no one came even close to writing just one verse.

No, that is just not at all true. There has never been a shortage of writings about morality, many of them quite excellent. It is hardly a Quran exclusivity.

Are you saying +1.6 billion are blind followers.

It seems that it is you making that claim, or at least attempting to evidence it.

Do you think that they believe without any evidence?

In God, you mean? That is certainly very often the case. That comes with the territory, after all.

 

[Godobeyer]

Hard-Liners Cheer Destruction of Bekasi Church
Batak Church Demolished by Bekasi Government

"His remarks on Thursday afternoon came just a few hours after the public order agency, or Satpol PP, aided by a mob, broke up a planned Christmas morning service by the beleaguered GKI Yasmin congregation in Bogor.

The congregation, which has been locked out of its church since April 2010, intended to hold its Christmas service on the sidewalk outside the church, as it has done for the past four years, but was heckled and taunted by a mob claiming to be local residents.

Kalla Claims Tolerance as Bogor Threatens to Demolish Church - The Jakarta Globe

"Home Affairs Minister Gamawan Fauzi said last week that he was disheartened by “rumored” demands to close 20 churches in Aceh.
Last month, 16 storefront churches were shut down in the Aceh Singkil district amid demands from local Muslim groups.

Aceh Mob Targets Another Storefront Church - The Jakarta Globe

"Authorities have closed nine churches and six Buddhist temples in Banda Aceh in the last week, following mounting pressure from local Islamist groups, activists and church officials said on Sunday."

Aceh Shuts Down Buddhist Temples and Churches - The Jakarta Globe

seems most of your sources are in Indonisia , and ONE source link !!!

anyway i disagree with burning any church in Muslim countries, because maybe you are modern people burned Mosques and make rally against Muslims imigration .

 

[Midnight Rain]

in Turkey may some of them convert to Islam?

1- I notice that you did not comment about 3 Muslims murdered in USA .
2- and hate acts against Muslims in West after 911 and Paris attacks
3- how about rally against Muslims in Germany ?

Hate in Europe: Germany's Anti-Islamic Protests
Hate in Europe: Germany's Anti-Islamic Protests | VICE News

so even in Modern Western countries there is abuse and rejection against Muslims residents.

then what about your claim about 1400 childern abused by Muslims .

Unless I am mistake I think he was commenting on the Islam based theocracy and religious law being used to subvert non-Muslims rather than generalized hate between any religious groups.

 

[gsa]

Ask yourself was the US invasion legal or illegal?
What was its objective?
Was it worthwile?
What about Afghan?
1 trillion Dollars spent and you have war verterans begging in street corners.
Note i have nothing against Americans.They are very good people but there is a question mark over America's foreign policy.

So what? I opposed the Iraq invasion from inception, lots of people did. I was ambivalent about Afghanistan, lots of people were. That doesn't mean that the US is responsible for all that ails the Islamic world. Most of the harm is self-inflicted.

As if on cue...

in Turkey may some of them convert to Islam?

1- I notice that you did not comment about 3 Muslims murdered in USA .
2- and hate acts against Muslims in West after 911 and Paris attacks
3- how about rally against Muslims in Germany ?

Hate in Europe: Germany's Anti-Islamic Protests
Hate in Europe: Germany's Anti-Islamic Protests | VICE News

so even in Modern Western countries there is abuse and rejection against Muslims residents.

then what about your claim about 1400 childern abused by Muslims .

The latter refers to the Rotherham Scandal I believe.

But can we be real for a second? What if Europeans and Americans behaved like Islamists? There would be far more than three Muslims killed in the USA, the French government would be expelling its Muslim citizens and the German protests would be violent attacks on the Saudi, Iranian, Egyptian and Pakistani embassies.

 

[Augustus]

seems most of your sources are in Indonisia , and ONE source link !!!

Are you saying the link is biased or not accurate? The source is one of the 2 major English language newspapers in Indonesia, I chose it because people can understand it seeing as it is written in English. Would you prefer the articles in Bahasa Indonesia?

Gereja Dibongkar, Jemaat HKBP Hadang Alat Berat | -metro- | Tempo.co

I only chose 1 country because I already knew these cases so can find them quickly. It was simply to show more churches/temples/etc. are destroyed in Muslim countries than Mosques in Western countries.

anyway i disagree with burning any church in Muslim countries, because maybe you are modern people burned Mosques and make rally against Muslims imigration .

Me? Why would you think I 'burn mosques' or 'rally against Muslim immigration'?

There is no doubt that many Muslims suffer discrimination against them in the West, this should always be condemned without equivocation. Nothing justifies it.

Muslims should also acknowledge, that minorities in Islamic countries and Muslim majority countries frequently suffer a higher level of discrimination than Muslims in the West do.

When people living in Islamic countries complain about how nasty the West is to Muslims who live there, they open themselves up to charges of hypocrisy unless they are aware of the failings in their own countries.

At the worst, it ends up with such ludicrous double standards as this:

"On Sunday, a majority of Swiss voters gave their support to an initiative to prohibit the construction of minarets — the towers from which the call to prayer is made — at mosques.

“This is contrary to what we know about the Swiss people who are very open and tolerant,” Marty said, adding that other Islamic nations who were members of the Organization of the Islamic Conference shared the same opinion.

“This reminds us that we still need to enhance dialogue and promote inter-religious understanding,” Marty said.

“We can’t let unacceptable policies emerge out of ignorance.”

Marty called on Indonesians to remain calm and sensible, saying that the Swiss government itself disapproved of the referendum.

“What we need to do now is build a bridge of understanding to counter stereotypes,” the minister said, adding that Indonesia, as the country with the world’s largest Muslim population, could “with a constructive spirit and polite manner, educate the Swiss people that this is unacceptable.”

Swiss Ban on New Minarets Unacceptable: Indonesian Government - The Jakarta Globe

 

[Mycroft]

The question is: Do Muslims around the world support ISIS?

The mainstream media makes us believe that the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (or ISIL) is a pure Islamic law-compliant group. We at Anonymous would like to tell our readers that this is not true. Why? Because they do not follow the basic commandments of Islam at all.

Nihad Anwad, National Executive Director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, published a letter in which he attempted to explain the basic Islamic Laws that ISIS has violated:

• It is obligatory to consider Yazidi (Christian and Jews) as People of the Scripture.
• It is forbidden in Islam to deny women their rights.
• It is forbidden in Islam to force people to convert.
• It is forbidden in Islam to disfigure the dead.
• It is forbidden in Islam to destroy the graves and shrines of Prophets and Companions.
• It is forbidden in Islam to harm or mistreat Christians or any ‘People of the Scripture’.
• Jihad in Islam is a purely defensive struggle. It is not permissible without the right cause, the right purpose, and the right rules of conduct.
• It is forbidden in Islam to kill emissaries, ambassadors, and diplomats — hence it is forbidden to kill journalists and aid workers.
• Loyalty to one’s nation is permissible in Islam.
• It is forbidden in Islam to declare a caliphate without consensus from all Muslims.

Muslims all around the world have been speaking out against ISIS and other extremist groups. The problem is that sometimes people do not know, or chose to ignore, this fact. Here are the top Muslim organizations and the Vatican, who have spoken out against ISIS.

The Organization Of Islamic Cooperation: “The Islamic State has nothing to do with Islam and has committed crimes that cannot be tolerated.” As the Vatican’s internal news source reported, the Secretary General for the Organization of Islamic Cooperation, which represents 1.4 billion Muslims in 57 countries around the world, condemned the Islamic State’s persecution of Christians and other religious minorities in Iraq, saying that the, “forced deportation under the threat of execution is a crime that cannot be tolerated.”

The Secretary General also distanced Islam from the actions of the militant group known as ISIS, saying they, “have nothing to do with Islam and its principles that call for justice, kindness, fairness, freedom of faith and coexistence.”

Al-Azhar University: “Islamic State is corrupt and, ‘a danger to Islam.'” Lebanese paper, The Daily Star, reported that Al-Azhar’s Grand Mufti Shawqi Allam, Egypt’s highest religious authority, denounced the Islamic State as a threat to Islam and said that the group both violates Sharia law and humanitarian law: “[They] give an opportunity for those who seek to harm us, to destroy us and interfere in our affairs with the [pretext of a] call to fight terrorism.”

Arab League: Strongly denounced the crimes against humanity carried out by the Islamic State. On August 11, Nabil al-Arabi, the Arab League Chief, denounced acts committed by the Islamic State in Iraq as “crimes against humanity,” demanding that they be brought to justice. According to Al Arabiya News, he said in a statement that he, “strongly denounced the crimes, killings, dispossession carried out by the terrorists (ISIS) against civilians and minorities in Iraq that have affected Christians in Mosul and Yazidis.”

Turkey’s Top Cleric: “Islamic State’s threats are hugely damaging, truly awful.” Turkey’s highest ranking cleric, Mehmet Gormez, decried the Islamic State’s declaration of a ‘caliphate’ and argued that the statements were damaging to the Muslim community. According to Reuters:

“Such declarations have no legitimacy whatsoever,” Mehmet Gormez, head of the Religious Affairs Directorate, the highest religious authority in Turkey, which, although a majority Muslim country, has been a secular state since the 1920’s.

“Since the caliphate was abolished … there have been movements that think they can pull together the Muslim world by re-establishing a caliphate, but they have nothing to do with reality, whether from a political or legal perspective.” Gormez said death threats against non-Muslims made by the group, formerly known as Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (ISIL), were hugely damaging.

“The statement made against Christians is truly awful. Islamic scholars need to focus on this [because] an inability to peacefully sustain other faiths and cultures heralds the collapse of a civilization,” he told Reuters in an interview.

The Muslim Council Of Britain: “Violence has no place in religion.” The Muslim Council of Great Britain condemned the Islamic State’s actions and expressed that they do not represent Sunni Muslims, according to The Independent. Shuja Shafi, a member of the council also said, “violence has no place in religion, violence has no religion. It is prohibited for people to present themselves for destruction.”

The Islamic Society of North America: “The Islamic State’s actions are to be denounced and are in no way representative of what Islam actually teaches.” The Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) released a statement denouncing the Islamic State, “for its attacks on Iraq’s religious minorities and the destruction of their places of worship.” ISNA President, Imam Mohamed Magid, said, “ISIS actions against religious minorities in Iraq violate the Quranic teaching, ‘Let there be no compulsion in religion’ (Surat al-Baqara 2:256),” adding, “their actions are to be denounced and are in no way representative of what Islam actually teaches.”

Saudi Arabia’s Highest Religious Authority: “Terrorists like the Islamic State are the number one enemy of Islam.” On August 19, Al Jazeera reported that Saudi Arabia’s grand mufti, Abdul-Aziz ibn Abdullah Al ash-Sheikh, the country’s top religious authority, said that terrorism is anti-Islamic and said that groups like the Islamic State which practice violence are the, “number one enemy of Islam.” “Extremist and militant ideas and terrorism which spread decay on Earth, destroying human civilization, are not in any way part of Islam, but are enemy number one of Islam, and Muslims are their first victims.”

Muslim Public Affairs Council: Condemned the Islamic State and called for a, “stand against extremism.” On August 20th, the Muslim Public Affairs Council (MPAC) released a statement condemning, “the barbaric execution of American Journalist James Foley by the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS).” MPAC urged, “all people of conscience to take a stand against extremism,” and offered condolences to Foley’s family. MPAC also noted the importance of countering ISIS and other extremist groups by working, “to empower the mainstream and relegate extremists to the irrelevance they deserve.”

So when next time if someone tells you that only a few Muslims have spoken out against ISIS, you will know what to say.

Sources:

World's top Muslim leaders condemn attacks on Iraqi Christians Vatican Radio

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/New...ghs-options-to-evacuate-trapped-Yazidis-.html

Turkey's top cleric calls new Islamic 'caliphate' illegitimate| Reuters

CAIR Reiterates Condemnation of ISIS Violence, Religious Extremism - CAIR

Isis concern: British Muslim leaders condemn extremist group - Crime - UK - The Independent

ISNA Denounces ISIS Attacks on Iraq's Religious Minorities - ISNA

Islamic State is our top enemy: Saudi mufti - Al Jazeera English