I have issues with Islam

[Godobeyer]

Allah says in the Qur'an to follow Scholars, Muhammed says to follow Scholars, even if they make mistake it's still ok.

EDITED Typo error + add comment .
notice that you said "sholars" not just 1 scholar .

I disagree with "even if they make mistake i'ts still ok " .there is no total obedience in Islam .except to God .

If a scholar make mistake we should show him his mistake to fix it . and face him by evidences from Quran and Hadith .

for exemple :
so if a scholar call you to harm your parents ,it's ok ? God "tell us" to be good with them , inspite if they are non-muslims

النساء 59
يَـٰٓأَيُّہَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوٓاْ أَطِيعُواْ ٱللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُواْ ٱلرَّسُولَ وَأُوْلِى ٱلۡأَمۡرِ مِنكُمۡ‌ۖ فَإِن تَنَـٰزَعۡتُمۡ فِى شَىۡءٍ۬ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى ٱللَّهِ وَٱلرَّسُولِ إِن كُنتُمۡ تُؤۡمِنُونَ بِٱللَّهِ وَٱلۡيَوۡمِ ٱلۡأَخِرِ‌ۚ ذَٲلِكَ خَيۡرٌ۬ وَأَحۡسَنُ تَأۡوِيلاً

4-59
O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority; and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end. (59)

this verse of Quran is clear , 1-Obey God , 2- Muhammad (pbuh) and 3- Obey the who authority , so the Scholar had not the the rule of authority accuatly , the kings and presidents and goverments had this rule .

and if we dispute in something , we refer to Allah and his messanger , NOT to scholars .

 

[FearGod]

Before I reply I want to verify that is from surat 19

Arabic does not translate well to English, word for word translations often result in nonsense

For a reasonably accurate interpretation I need to read the full surah. I believe that is from surah 19 but I want to be certain before I attempt an interpretation
A word for word translation makes little sense as i interpret it as "face judgement with no recourse"
I do not recall that from memory but it seems like it is from surah 19

The word in Arabic have 2 meanings, one is "passing over it" and the other meaning "expecting it".

The verse doesn't say that everyone will be punished by it.

The next verse make it clear that those who avoided the bad deeds by fearing God will be escaped from it.

Mahasn picked up one verse and make out of it a big issue that all Muslims will be in hell.

ترجمة و معنى كلمة واردها في قاموس المعاني. قاموس عربي انجليزي مصطلحات صفحة 1

 

[oldbadger]

So what are you and your secular leaders doing to try and stop the British government's terrorism and extremism?

......... which means that you do support extremist attacks and threats in our streets?
When folks tell me that I support bad things, that tells me that they have no intention of speaking out against Islamic Extremism on our streets......

However, if you would like to think up a list of bad things that we have done, I will read it. What country do you live in? I'll be wanting to look at what you have been up to.

 

[Pastek]

What I think he should have been saying is 'Sharia Law has no place on London Streets! Sharia Vigilantes have no right to interfer with anybody on London streets!

But he did not.

London is special.
I remember one guy some years ago -without a hand and one-eyed- he was very dangerous and threatened UK more than once publically.
Still your country protected him and didn't want to give him to Jordania while they wanted to judge him for criminal acts.
I think that's because you allow free speech even for extremist.
In France someone who have this kind of speech would be arrested because it would be "hate speech" and dangerous for the citizens.

 

[Augustus]

Religion is just one of many things that can be used to manipulate otherwise good people into doing evil things. Getting rid of religion or certain religions wouldn't really change much. If you want less violence than getting rid of violent people would be the solution.

Think we would have to get rid of people, full stop.

The evidence is clear that Muslim Leaders in the UK are not doing enough to stop Islamic Extremism here.

Most British extremists are idealistic and headstrong young people. Do you actually think that they listen to the older generation, especially those they see as the 'establishment'?

I mean do the 'yoot' in the street gangs listen to the Archbishop of Canterbury and Michael Gove?

To combat extremism you need to deal with the causes that make extremist ideologies attractive to people. Now, the dominant extremist ideology is Salafi-jihadism, in the 70s it was violent socialism as adopted by the Red Army Fractions and Red Brigades of this world. In the 30s and 40s, we had fascism and communism. Turn of the century, anarchism. European history is full of violent Millenarian Christian movements.

Why are a disproportionate number of extremists recent converts? What attracts people to violent ideologies in the first place? What turns people away from such ideologies?

The idea that a few old Muslims speaking out (which they already do anyway) would change much is pie in the sky logic, about as effective as a 'say no to drugs' type campaign.

 

[beenie]

Good!
We're all on the same page after all...... that's lovely....

What I don't understand is how you write stuff like :-

Would you like to enlarge upon that?
I tell you straight....... any facetious approach in respect of one sect or another just ain't going to help. It certainly won't help to reduce the killing........
I'm just sayin'.......

The ayatollah is a political figure placed in a religious position.

 

[oldbadger]

London is special.
I remember one guy some years ago -without a hand and one-eyed- he was very dangerous and threatened UK more than once publically.
Still your country protected him and didn't want to give him to Jordania while they wanted to judge him for criminal acts.
I think that's because you allow free speech even for extremist.
In France someone who have this kind of speech would be arrested because it would be "hate speech" and dangerous for the citizens.

Hello!
That is correct.
He later agreed to be sent to Jordan.

 

[oldbadger]

Most British extremists are idealistic and headstrong young people. Do you actually think that they listen to the older generation, especially those they see as the 'establishment'?

Yes.
To say little or nothing is almost a green light....

I mean do the 'yoot' in the street gangs listen to the Archbishop of Canterbury and Michael Gove?

Street gangs don't blow up innocent people, attempt to dominate civilians with strange laws, or plan acts of terrorism. They probably are not Christian, so why are you trying to make this parallel with the A of C??

To combat extremism you need to deal with the causes that make extremist ideologies attractive to people.

..... in which case, in these situations, Influential Muslims should be speaking out, very loudly, against Islamic extremism....

Why are a disproportionate number of extremists recent converts? What attracts people to violent ideologies in the first place? What turns people away from such ideologies?

Good questions........ and who converted them? Who filled their heads with the extremism and hatred?

The idea that a few old Muslims speaking out (which they already do anyway) would change much is pie in the sky logic, about as effective as a 'say no to drugs' type campaign.

No....... I don't agree with you.
....... No..... they are not speaking out clearly or loudly enough.

 

[oldbadger]

The ayatollah is a political figure placed in a religious position.

So what?
Imams, Mullahs, Ayatollahs...... these are influential people who are listened to.
No Influential guidance from leaders could possibly be seen as negative at this time.

On another note, one of the situations which we are having to face here is the attempted implementation of Sharia Law in some areas where Muslims have a higher % population.

Nothing about Sharia law is acceptable to UK residents. It's oppression of women is disgusting, and it's list of death sentences is terrifying. And yet our Influential Muslims do not speak out against such attempts clearly and loudly.

NB: you have probably heard about the terrorism attack in Paris by now (Charlie Ebdo). 12 dead and circa 10 wounded. It goes on. It continues.

 

[Woodrow LI]

Yes.
To say little or nothing is almost a green light....


Street gangs don't blow up innocent people, attempt to dominate civilians with strange laws, or plan acts of terrorism. They probably are not Christian, so why are you trying to make this parallel with the A of C??


..... in which case, in these situations, Influential Muslims should be speaking out, very loudly, against Islamic extremism....


Good questions........ and who converted them? Who filled their heads with the extremism and hatred?


No....... I don't agree with you.
....... No..... they are not speaking out clearly or loudly enough.

Being out in the boon docks of North Dakota I really am not familiar with anyone that could be considered an influential Muslim. being the only male Muslim in Lamoure County North Dakota I guess I could say I am the most influential male Muslim in Lamoure county. But it sure isn't a very loud voice we do not even have a local newspaper here.

Out of curiosity who would you say is an influential Muslim in the UK

 

[beenie]

@oldbadger, you are so set on arguing with me that you're not realizing that I agree with you. I'm saying that the ayatollah is placed in a leadership position for political reasons, and yes, people are influenced by his ridiculousness... and I think it's pathetic.

Shariah Law has no place anywhere, in my not-so-humble opinion.

Yes, I heard about the terrorist attack in Paris, and I've already commented on how horrible it is.

Are you accusing me of backing terrorism and/or Shariah Law? I'm a little confused why you keep quoting my posts and challenging me on Shariah Law and the ayatollah... I don't support either, I just pointed out that the ayatollah, while in a "religious" position, does not represent the religion at all.

Have we conversed before?

 

[oldbadger]

Being out in the boon docks of North Dakota I really am not familiar with anyone that could be considered an influential Muslim. being the only male Muslim in Lamoure County North Dakota I guess I could say I am the most influential male Muslim in Lamoure county. But it sure isn't a very loud voice we do not even have a local newspaper here.

Out of curiosity who would you say is an influential Muslim in the UK

Wow! You're somewhat isolated in your religion out there. (I must find out what a boon-dock is).

Who would I say is an influential Muslim? Well, I'm not a Muslim, but I would most certainly start with the National Council of Muslims, then the Imams and other Muslim leaders. Anybody who has a voice in Muslim communities. How hard is this?

But that film shown in an earlier post, where an influential Muslim said that Sharia law is just for Muslims (it certainly is not for anybody in the UK, apart from civil situations), and that he could not stop people from carrying it out......... dreadful! Almost an incitement to commit..... ?

 

[oldbadger]

@oldbadger, you are so set on arguing with me that you're not realizing that I agree with you. I'm saying that the ayatollah is placed in a leadership position for political reasons, and yes, people are influenced by his ridiculousness... and I think it's pathetic.

The above is clearly not correct....... I will not be agreeing with your opinion about any Muslim offices or influences as being ridiculous. Look what happens when people ridicule other sects, faiths and religions..... the very first rule must surely be : 'Don't ridicule folks'.
You see? I don't agree with you at all about that.

Shariah Law has no place anywhere, in my not-so-humble opinion.

True....... Now I am agreeing with you!
There's no place for this anywhere on Brit land, apart from any civil guidance that it might be able to give.

Yes, I heard about the terrorist attack in Paris, and I've already commented on how horrible it is.

Dreadful......... I don't like mags and papers that deliberately set out to upset folks, but to respond with murder and terror is utterly horrific.

Are you accusing me of backing terrorism and/or Shariah Law?

Nope

I'm a little confused why you keep quoting my posts and challenging me on Shariah Law and the ayatollah... I don't support either,

I quote your posts because they are tagged to me.
You mightr not support certain Muslim Offices but I'll support the lot if they will speak out in attempts to put this terrorism at an end.

I just pointed out that the ayatollah, while in a "religious" position, does not represent the religion at all.

That's your opinion.........., other Muslims will see it differently.......

Have we conversed before?

Can't remember......

 

[Rick O'Shez]

When folks tell me that I support bad things, that tells me that they have no intention of speaking out against Islamic Extremism on our streets......

What some here may not realise is that a large chunk of the UK population were against the UK getting involved in the Iraq war.

 

[oldbadger]

What some here may not realise is that a large chunk of the UK population were against the UK getting involved in the Iraq war.

Absolutely!
Even so........ nutters trying to carry out Sharia law in our streets, attempted terrorism, successful terrorism, failure to give children the benefit of the official education program, forced marriages and honour attacks can hardly be supported, even if we all agreed to the Iraq war.

..... and influential Muslims here do not speak out loudly enough against all the above.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

..... and influential Muslims here do not speak out loudly enough against all the above.

I think they need to do much more to get their own house in order.

 

[YmirGF]

[I don't support either, I just pointed out that the ayatollah, while in a "religious" position, does not represent the religion at all.

Have we conversed before?

I tend to agree because ayatollah only represent Shia Muslims. The vast majority of Sunni Muslims look askance at Shia opinions on a host of issues. Shia is what? 9% of the Muslim world? That said, Imams (Sunni) do wield considerable power and influence over their followers. Granted, no Muslim is required to follow the ruling of any Imam and don't, but many, many do. Many allow themselves to be used as little wind-up dolls ... as we see violence so often erupt in the Muslim world just after Friday prayers...

 

[Woodrow LI]

Wow! You're somewhat isolated in your religion out there. (I must find out what a boon-dock is).

Who would I say is an influential Muslim? Well, I'm not a Muslim, but I would most certainly start with the National Council of Muslims, then the Imams and other Muslim leaders. Anybody who has a voice in Muslim communities. How hard is this?

But that film shown in an earlier post, where an influential Muslim said that Sharia law is just for Muslims (it certainly is not for anybody in the UK, apart from civil situations), and that he could not stop people from carrying it out......... dreadful! Almost an incitement to commit..... ?

Boon-dock is American slang. It refers to regions that are essentially unpopulated. Sort like the Australian out back. North Dakota actually both Dakotas are considered boondocks. North Dakota in Area is about 71,000 square miles and a poulation of about 700,000 with nearly half the population living in the 2 cities of Fargo and Bismarck most of the state is open prairie land.n with scattered small towns most with a population of less than 100

before I accepted Islam I was living in Austin, Texas a reasonably large city and with a Muslim population larger than the Muslim population in both Dakotas combined.
Even there I never saw a permanent Imam all the Imams were simply the oldest person present at prayer time, which often ended up being me.
I also quickly learned that if you want a Mosque, you build it your self. There is no help from any central organization. If you want an Imam
either the local community picks one or they all take turns, which seems to be the norm in the USA. I eventually found out there are less than 700 imams in the entire USA nearly all with no religious training.

During warm weather when we live on Pine Ridge Reservation the Rez has an area of about 25,000 square miles and a population of about 15,000 people I know about 10 Muslim families there. When I am there I do serve as Imam and we take turns using each other's houses as being the Mosque.

 

[YmirGF]

Boon-dock is American slang. It refers to regions that are essentially unpopulated. Sort like the Australian out back. North Dakota actually both Dakotas are considered boondocks. North Dakota in Area is about 71,000 square miles and a poulation of about 700,000 with nearly half the population living in the 2 cities of Fargo and Bismarck most of the state is open prairie land.n with scattered small towns most with a population of less than 100

before I accepted Islam I was living in Austin, Texas a reasonably large city and with a Muslim population larger than the Muslim population in both Dakotas combined.
Even there I never saw a permanent Imam all the Imams were simply the oldest person present at prayer time, which often ended up being me.
I also quickly learned that if you want a Mosque, you build it your self. There is no help from any central organization. If you want an Imam
either the local community picks one or they all take turns, which seems to be the norm in the USA. I eventually found out there are less than 700 imams in the entire USA nearly all with no religious training.

During warm weather when we live on Pine Ridge Reservation the Rez has an area of about 25,000 square miles and a population of about 15,000 people I know about 10 Muslim families there. When I am there I do serve as Imam and we take turns using each other's houses as being the Mosque.

Off topic, Woodrow, but have you ever seen a Canadian comedy called "Little Mosque on the Prairie"? It was really quite a wonderful show and portrayed Muslims in a sensitive but humorous light as we Canadians are famous for.

 

[Woodrow LI]

I think they need to do much more to get their own house in order.

Each Mosque is individual with no physical or organizational ties to any other. Within each Mosque each person is individual as there is no membership like one finds in churches. Although typically those in a Mosque live in the same neighborhood.