I have to be honest, Islam freaks me out

[MD]

Propping up dictators and leaders has bitten the US in the a.. many times. But they were all of one religion or another, no? Saddam's foreign minister was a Christian wasnt he hung or shot. Seems the religious leaders are in cahoots regardless of the religion they follow.

Religion plays a part, but most of it has to do with power. The entire middle east is a product of western and soviet influence (mostly western, the soviets were more involved in central and east asia), because of the oil.

And Tariq Aziz is still alive...

 

[Awoon]

Religion plays a part, but most of it has to do with power. The entire middle east is a product of western and soviet influence (mostly western, the soviets were more involved in central and east asia), because of the oil.

And Tariq Aziz is still alive...

Yeah he's in prison.

I personally would like to see the west out of there.

 

[sandandfoam]

I just don't see other religious groups expressing themselves this way. Even if you can find horrible things written in scripture from other religions, the followers are not seen to be so supportive of violence. It really scares me.

Police use pepper spray on anti-Islamic film protesters in Sydney at the US consulate | News.com.au

What about the recent events in Burma where Buddhists got stuck into Muslims?

I expected more from you Madhuri

 

[Reverend Rick]

- but let me juxtapose your impatience argument with another thought, as I recall you are a conservative and oppose the Obama presidency:

Why don't you just be patient with Obama and give him some more time? He's only had a few years in office, not enough to really succeed or fail as a president yet, and he has a lot of challenges to overcome being black. Why don't you just give him a second term and a second chance, be more patient with him.

Fair enough, at least Obama has 4 years of experience that he did not have before. I will admit that he has a better chance of success the second time around.

If he actually would come up with a workable plan for folks who don't build bridges or put out fires or teach I might consider what he has to offer.

4 years ago, progressives called the Republican candidate McSame, that name accurately describes Obama pretty well.

When he finally realizes that folks making 250K are not rich and might create some jobs instead of lumping us in with the billionaires we might get somewhere.

Economies usually move quicker than religions:yes:

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

That's how I feel about Christianity.



I disagree. Christianity survived its dark ages, Islam can too.

I was leaving Christianity out of this because it is not the subject of the thread.

Christianity has come though many dark times, and still produces the odd crippled minded leader. Though as a faith it is a plurality that has never been all bad nor all good. Most of the time the disputes and horrors have been between its own denominations not with other religions. Christianity remains a living changing religion almost unrecognisable from itself of the middle ages.

Islam is 600 years younger than Christianity and seems to have learnt nothing from its own history or that of Christianity. It seems stuck in a time warp. It has shown no ability to change nor has it shown any wish to.

Long periods of Christian disharmony were caused by breakaway Christian theology, which had the effect of bringing change to the whole church. I can not see any driver for change in Islam.

I would be far happier if I could.....

 

[Alceste]

I do want to point out that, in protest terms, a hundred people is not very many. The coverage of the Australian clash seems a little overblown to me. I'm not saying it's OK, of course, but it's hardly a threat to the Australian way of life.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Your impatience knows no limits. Give them a few generations here in the States and that will not be the case. You really have to lose that broad brush, many have done quite well at adjusting, why on earth do you think they came here in the first place? Think about it before you reply. If they where so happy with the old ways, why come here?

The first generation that came to the UK after the war were no trouble at all... the settled down, were excellent workers, even changed to wearing European clothes.
We are now into the fourth generation and there has been a steady decline. They no longer see them selves as British. They have established large enclaves in most cities and are a law unto themselves. Unlike their parents they now wear Arab dress.
However probably the Unseen majority are law abiding and useful citizens, unfortunately they keep their heads down and let the newer generations be influenced by the radical teachers, mostly from Pakistan and financed by the oil states.

After a few generations the US will be experiencing the same problems with them as we now do in Europe.

 

[Alceste]

Yep, Music wouldn't know that I was on the streets of Melbourne protesting the Cheney-Rumsfeld war crime in Iraq. He seems to live in a very black and white world.

Me too! Calgary though. That was a better time all around. Shame we didn't succeed.

The first generation that came to the UK after the war were no trouble at all... the settled down, were excellent workers, even changed to wearing European clothes.
We are now into the fourth generation and there has been a steady decline. They no longer see them selves as British. They have established large enclaves in most cities and are a law unto themselves. Unlike their parents they now wear Arab dress.
However probably the Unseen majority are law abiding and useful citizens, unfortunately they keep their heads down and let the newer generations be influenced by the radical teachers, mostly from Pakistan and financed by the oil states.

After a few generations the US will be experiencing the same problems with them as we now do in Europe.

Seeing the world through a filter that divides people into "us" and "them" is poison, no matter who is doing it.

 

[F0uad]

Well generalizing a 1,8billion community doesn't really help your ''moderation'' career inside RF

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Seeing the world through a filter that divides people into "us" and "them" is poison, no matter who is doing it.

Up to twenty years ago neither group saw themselves as being in an "us and them" situation. To day there is very much an "us and them" situation in most cities. Of course not all are in those groups by choice. But it would be hard to take part in this thread with out recognising the situation we find ourselves in. It is better to recognise a problem than hide ones head in the sand.
Most countries have their own its own "us and them" situation that is never far below the surface. Though few are as dangerous as this one.

 

[Quagmire]

I was leaving Christianity out of this because it is not the subject of the thread.

Christianity has come though many dark times, and still produces the odd crippled minded leader. Though as a faith it is a plurality that has never been all bad nor all good.

For most of it's history "Christendom" was synonymous with Catholicism. Every other interpretation was deemed heretical and treated with a zero-tolerance policy of extermination.

Most of the time the disputes and horrors have been between its own denominations not with other religions.

I disagree: "Christianizing the savages" was the universal motto and excuse used by the imperialist European powers for stripping indigenous people all over the globe of their lands, cultures, and freedoms and often for justification of wholesale genocide.

Christianity remains a living changing religion almost unrecognisable from itself of the middle ages.

Islam is 600 years younger than Christianity and seems to have learnt nothing from its own history or that of Christianity. It seems stuck in a time warp. It has shown no ability to change nor has it shown any wish to.

The same could be said (and IMO more easily demonstrated) about Christendom up until the Reformation in the 16th century.

Long periods of Christian disharmony were caused by breakaway Christian theology, which had the effect of bringing change to the whole church. I can not see any driver for change in Islam.

I would be far happier if I could.....

If we were to look at this as a cultural footrace with a certain level of civilization and sophistication as the finish line, and given Christianity's 600 year head start, I don't think Christianity would have anything to brag about.

Everything I mentioned above, as well as the Inquisitions, the witch hunts, the pogroms against European Jews, were still going on a lot more recently than 600 years ago.

 

[Nooj]

that is it!!!!

freedom of speech and self expression seems to be an idea that most dogmatic religions are at odds with. and since the world is so much smaller with the advent of the internet, what is happening now with islam (a relatively new religion) or the very loud actions of a section of islam, will eventually succumb to the realization that natural law always wins...

since when is freedom of speech and self expression a natural law?

 

[ChristineES]

I am dismayed over what is going on in the Middle East right now, but I don't want to blame the entire faith of Islam for it. I, like always, blame the extremists. I see Muslims walking down the street, working, etc. everyday and none of them are violent. EDIT: I meant the ones who live in my area.

 

[Madhuri]

What about the recent events in Burma where Buddhists got stuck into Muslims?

I expected more from you Madhuri

I don't see how that is related to the topic in this thread.

The issue in Burma is a Burma issue. The issue in the OP is a global issue.

 

[Nooj]

Statement from Leaders of the Australian Islamic Community regarding the protest in Sydney:

Leaders of Australia's Islamic community condemn the violent scenes that were seen on the streets of Sydney yesterday.

The protest was not sanctioned or authorised by any Islamic organisation.

Although we believe in the right to protest and freedom of speech, it cannot be seen as freedom of speech to insult religions, Prophets and the sacred values or articles of people.

Accordingly, we condemn in the strongest possible terms, the provocative and offensive content of the film depicting the Prophet Muhammad that was recently released.

However, such insults do not provide individuals with the right to react violently against others and retaliate in a manner as was demonstrated by a few of the protesters yesterday.

Although we understand that many in the world are deeply offended by the release of the offensive film, we call upon the community to react in a manner that exemplifies the noble character of the Prophet Muhammad and the spirit of Islam by exercising wisdom and patience.

Statement on behalf of:

Office of The Mufti of Australia
Islamic Council of New South Wales (ICNSW)
Lebanese Muslim Association (LMA)
Islamic Council of Victoria
Australian Islamic Mission
Australian National Imams Council
United Muslim Women Association
Australian Institute of Islamic Culture
Muslim Students Association of Australia
Australian Council of Women Association
Australian Islamic Voice
Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jama'ah Association of Australia (ASWJ)
United Muslims of Australia (UMA)
Islamic Egyptian Society

For further enquiries, please contact:

LMA - Samier Dandan 0414 998 008
ICNSW - Khaled Sukkarieh 0418 999 022

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

I was leaving Christianity out of this because it is not the subject of the thread.

I was going to respond to this but...

For most of it's history "Christendom" was synonymous with Catholicism. Every other interpretation was deemed heretical and treated with a zero-tolerance policy of extermination.

I disagree: "Christianizing the savages" was the universal motto and excuse used by the imperialist European powers for stripping indigenous people all over the globe of their lands, cultures, and freedoms and often for justification of wholesale genocide.

The same could be said (and IMO more easily demonstrated) about Christendom up until the Reformation in the 16th century.

If we were to look at this as a cultural footrace with a certain level of civilization and sophistication as the finish line, and given Christianity's 600 year head start, I don't think Christianity would have anything to brag about.

Everything I mentioned above, as well as the Inquisitions, the witch hunts, the pogroms against European Jews, were still going on a lot more recently than 600 years ago.

...this said everything I wanted to say.

 

[Straw Dog]

I don't know if the media simply does not represent them, but it sure would be nice to hear Muslim leaders who are moderate come out and condemn extreme behaviour like this.

There is a difference between those that are only externally religious and those who internalize it. Those only concerned with the social image of being religious are facilitating extremism by not representing it properly. Those that internalize the religion are just as valid in their interpretations as the extremists. They do need to step forward and proclaim the superiority of their interpretation compared to the extremists. I think this difference between internal vs. external religious expression is what defines whether or not moderates are facilitating extremism. They do need to claim it as their own.

 

[Dingbat]

For most of it's history "Christendom" was synonymous with Catholicism. Every other interpretation was deemed heretical and treated with a zero-tolerance policy of extermination.



I disagree: "Christianizing the savages" was the universal motto and excuse used by the imperialist European powers for stripping indigenous people all over the globe of their lands, cultures, and freedoms and often for justification of wholesale genocide.



The same could be said (and IMO more easily demonstrated) about Christendom up until the Reformation in the 16th century.



If we were to look at this as a cultural footrace with a certain level of civilization and sophistication as the finish line, and given Christianity's 600 year head start, I don't think Christianity would have anything to brag about.

Everything I mentioned above, as well as the Inquisitions, the witch hunts, the pogroms against European Jews, were still going on a lot more recently than 600 years ago.

Indeed, the early 20th Century isn't 600 years ago is it? I don't think so but I could be wrong....damn timewarps. If we are to go by this comparison of the two it seems like Islam is still winning the footrace even if it is currently behind at the moment.

 

[waitasec]

since when is freedom of speech and self expression a natural law?

since the age of enlightenment.

 

[Straw Dog]

since the age of enlightenment.

Perhaps the age of enlightenment in western culture was only the beginning of enlightenment and requires the subsequent actualization of the generations that follow. What progressions do you feel were made in general philosophy and the philosophy of science since its inception? Personally, I think the notion of a passive observer of nature has been overturned. I don't equate this with popular new age notions, such as the law of attraction, but it does represent a shift in traditional frames of reference. There is no genuine isolation. Everything is interconnected. We are one system. There is no way to fully understand an individual without understanding the social network that the individual arose in. Most of us are operating in an outdated model.