I have to be honest, Islam freaks me out

[waitasec]

Perhaps the age of enlightenment in western culture was only the beginning of enlightenment and requires the subsequent actualization of the generations that follow. What progressions do you feel were made in general philosophy and the philosophy of science since its inception?

personal freedoms/rights

Personally, I think the notion of a passive observer of nature has been overturned. I don't equate this with popular new age notions, such as the law of attraction, but it does represent a shift in traditional frames of reference.

perhaps religious dogma has something to do with that..

There is no genuine isolation. Everything is interconnected. We are one system.

absolutely agree fwiw, i was originally responding to this post:

I have great respect for people who can embrace Islam with out being subject to its darker aspects. And who are able to reject the efforts of its more radical and hateful leaders.

However I have no respect for Islam as a religion, or as a way of life or legal system. I suspect its followers will always find it teachings difficult to reconcile with the modern world. And will always find itself at odds with the basics of international human rights law. (which includes free speech)

There is no way to fully understand an individual without understanding the social network that the individual arose in. Most of us are operating in an outdated model.

what model is the standard
it seems as though the standard then is...there is no standard...
as you rightly said, there is no genuine isolation and the world is smaller with the internet...
i take issue with the fact that that they want to us to retract why we, the western world, stipulated freedom of speech and expression in the first place.

 

[darkendless]

What happened in Sydney yesterday was just shocking. The footage is there for all to see (Sky news had good coverage for you Aussies/Kiwis).

These people have no right to enjoy the pleasure that it is to live in a country as great as Australia if they react like this in our cities. If they have a problem, take it up with the film maker and GET OFF OUR STREETS!

 

[Nooj]

since the age of enlightenment.

why not before the age of enlightenment?

 

[Straw Dog]

personal freedoms/rights

perhaps religious dogma has something to do with that..

absolutely agree fwiw, i was originally responding to this post:

what model is the standard
it seems as though the standard then is...there is no standard...
as you rightly said, there is no genuine isolation and the world is smaller with the internet...
i take issue with the fact that that they want to us to retract why we, the western world, stipulated freedom of speech and expression in the first place.

Religious dogma is beside the point. The greatest transition in physics of the 20th century was that there is no passive observer. We are all active observers that influence that which we are observing. Again, I don't equate this with pseudo-scientific notions like the Secret, which is simply new age notions attached to positive psychology. However, it still does have a profound shift on how we view our relation to nature. I think there is merit to liberal philosophy, but it hasn't yet reached its full expression.

 

[Nooj]

What happened in Sydney yesterday was just shocking. The footage is there for all to see (Sky news had good coverage for you Aussies/Kiwis).

These people have no right to enjoy the pleasure that it is to live in a country as great as Australia if they react like this in our cities. If they have a problem, take it up with the film maker and GET OFF OUR STREETS!

why do you say our cities and our streets? are the protestors, even the violent ones, not tax-paying australian citizens? it's their cities and their streets and their country as well.

 

[darkendless]

why do you say our cities and our streets? are the protestors, even the violent ones, not tax-paying australian citizens? it's their cities and their streets and their country as well.

I don't care who they are, what ethnicity they are or what colour their skin is, any violent protest is unwelcome here and should be treated with full force.

More to the point why are these idiots ruining their own streets and attacking the very people paid to keep them safe with their own tax dollars over a movie made in America? It boggles the mind.

I also do not consider anyone who holds up a sign saying "behead those who insult Islam" to be Australian or even human.

 

[Straw Dog]

Religious dogma is beside the point. The greatest transition in physics of the 20th century was that there is no passive observer. We are all active observers that influence that which we are observing. Again, I don't equate this with pseudo-scientific notions like the Secret, which is simply new age notions attached to positive psychology. However, it still does have a profound shift on how we view our relation to nature. I think there is merit to liberal philosophy, but it hasn't yet reached its full expression.

To clarify further, liberal philosophy doesn't refer to any particular political party. Anyone that endorses individual rights to a certain degree is technically a liberal from a historical standpoint. I always take the wide view rather than just arbitrary political platforms endorsed at present.

 

[Nooj]

I also do not consider anyone who holds up a sign saying "behead those who insult Islam" to be Australian or even human.

that tells me more about you than it says about them.

 

[Straw Dog]

that tells me more about you than it says about them.

Yes, does it ever serve us in the long run to de-humanize our 'enemies'? Love your enemies and watch the transformation that takes place. Hate cannot be overcome by more hatred. Fire can only be put out by water. Whether it be tears of sorrow or tears of joy, let our tears put out the flames of hate. So few Christians have faith in this teaching. Literally, loving your enemies is the only way to transform them.

 

[apophenia]

I have absolute faith that Santa Claus will save us.

If anyone says there is no Santa, I swear I will wreak horrible vengeance.

Don't push me, cos I'm close to the edge ...

 

[Godobeyer]

I just don't see other religious groups expressing themselves this way. Even if you can find horrible things written in scripture from other religions, the followers are not seen to be so supportive of violence. It really scares me.

Police use pepper spray on anti-Islamic film protesters in Sydney at the US consulate | News.com.au

this is why

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/138610-cartones-burn-quran-day-film-what.html

 

[apophenia]

that tells me more about you than it says about them.

OK Nooj, tell me why someone threatening beheadings on the streets of Sydney is not a total fruitcake who should be forcibly put under psychiatric care.

Seriously. Make it a good argument, not just a throw away piece of PC fluff. Convince me that there is even a shred of possibility that this kind of urban terrorism is justified. And make no mistake, this is terrorism. The aim is to terrify non-muslims into 'obedience' is it not ?

I don't recall any street protests in Australia where calls for beheading or anything similar have ever been made. I have attended anti-Vietnam war demos, anti-Iraq war demos, I have attended protests against the government on our waterfronts, in other words I am familiar with what happens when Australians are engaged in vigorous protest.

But I have never before seen a homicidal lunatic calling for ritual beheadings, and being defended as though his position was valid. Am I just a bit socially backward do you think ?

Explain to me how that isn't regression to medieval barbarity if allowed to exist on our streets.

 

[darkendless]

that tells me more about you than it says about them.

You seem overly forgiving of people with such hate filled minds.

I simply think we, as a species, should be better than such barbaric ways.

Then again, people with too much philosophy tend to think the best in everyone.

 

[darkendless]

OK Nooj, tell me why someone threatening beheadings on the streets of Sydney is not a total fruitcake who should be forcibly put under psychiatric care.

Seriously. Make it a good argument, not just a throw away piece of PC fluff. Convince me that there is even a shred of possibility that this kind of urban terrorism is justified. And make no mistake, this is terrorism. The aim is to terrify non-muslims into 'obedience' is it not ?

I don't recall any street protests in Australia where calls for beheading or anything similar have ever been made. I have attended anti-Vietnam war demos, anti-Iraq war demos, I have attended protests against the government on our waterfronts, in other words I am familiar with what happens when Australians are engaged in vigorous protest.

But I have never before seen a homicidal lunatic calling for ritual beheadings, and being defended as though his position was valid. Am I just a bit socially backward do you think ?

Explain to me how that isn't regression to medieval barbarity if allowed to exist on our streets.

Good to see I won't be alone in being labelled a racist because I see no humanity is people who call for the execution of others over a movie.

The scale of the protests have sickened me to the core.

 

[Straw Dog]

Don't get me wrong. There is plenty of room for criticism when it comes to such violent and reactionary behavior. The genuine measure of decency resides in how well we handle ourselves in circumstances beyond our control. Those who have responded violently represent an inability to control base impulses. It is critical for all people of civilization to act with the deepest sense of civility. What is civilization without civility? We all must let go of the ego in order to flow freely with the changing state of things. The inability to control one's emotions doesn't impress me. I expect more from humanity. Let us impress one another.

 

[darkendless]

I expect more from humanity.

Don't we all?

I think as a race we continually get worse.

 

[apophenia]

We all must let go of the ego in order to flow freely with the changing state of things. The inability to control one's emotions doesn't impress me. I expect more from humanity. Let us impress one another.

Being realistic, sadly, that is not going to happen.
Individuals can develop sensitivity, patience and tolerance.
Crowds are volatile and brutal.

 

[Nooj]

You seem overly forgiving of people with such hate filled minds.

i'm not the one who can forgive them.

i can think of hate-filled people as people because hate is a human state of mind. who isn't familiar with hatred?

 

[darkendless]

i'm not the one who can forgive them.

i can think of hate-filled people as people because hate is a human state of mind. who isn't familiar with hatred?

True.

I just find it hard to tolerate such primitive behaviour. As Australians we should expect much better from our own.

 

[Music]

What happened in Sydney yesterday was just shocking. The footage is there for all to see (Sky news had good coverage for you Aussies/Kiwis).

These people have no right to enjoy the pleasure that it is to live in a country as great as Australia if they react like this in our cities. If they have a problem, take it up with the film maker and GET OFF OUR STREETS!

You must learn to be tolerant. You shouldn't get angry or overly emotional every time people do something you disagree with.