"I Heard You Mormons...."

[Luminous]

Polygamy, or plural marriage, was started by Joseph Smith in the late 1830's. We believe it was a commandment given to him by revelation. The Book of Mormon prohibits polygamy except at such times as God specifically authorizes it for the purpose of more rapidly increasing the population of a given group of people than would otherwise be the case. Polygamy eventually came to be practiced by roughly 5% of all Mormon men, which is a much smaller number than most people think. At the time Joseph Smith instituted the practice, it had not been officially announced as Church doctrine. That wouldn't take place for a number of years, not until after the Mormon Pioneers had settled the Salt Lake Valley.

I think God wants me to "rapidly increase" my group of people, but not yours. prove me wrong.

 

[Katzpur]

I think God wants me to "rapidly increase" my group of people, but not yours. prove me wrong.

What's your problem, Luminous? Go ahead and increase. Who's stopping you?

 

[Katzpur]

Something I've wondered about: isn't polygamy in the afterlife still kinda allowed?

Presumably it's an eternal doctrine.

I mean, if you get married and sealed in the Temple (and therefore married for eternity, right?), then your spouse dies, you can get re-married and sealed again, can't you? Wouldn't that mean that a Mormon who "plays by the rules" could still end up with multiple spouses for eternity in Heaven?

Yes.

But not soup? I'm pretty sure they had soup in the 1800s.

I'll tell you like I told Father Heathen two or three times (although it seems to me that neither of you are paying any attention anyway). Tea and coffee. Period. End of story. I realize that's terribly complicated, but I can't dumb it down a whole lot more than I already have.

 

[Katzpur]

If you deliberately try to find loopholes in your own holy writ and then ignore the resulting inconsistencies, what does that say, exactly? I mean when you interpret in such a way that it ceases to have any rational coherency then why bother following it at all?

The point of following it is that it has been proven to result in better than average health. True, I would probably be healthier if I were not to drink so much Diet Coke, and I would be the first to admit that in this particular case, the spirit of the law is probably at least as important as the letter of the law. The fact remains, though, that members of the Church who are abstaining from tea, coffee, alcohol, and tobacco are living the Word of Wisdom. These people are following the law as it was given, which is a whole lot better than throwing it out entirely.

 

[Luminous]

What's your problem, Luminous? Go ahead and increase. Who's stopping you?

i'm just saying that its wrong to say you know of God. we are all without undeniable truth, we only have our thought and we should limit such to what is most truely clear. though i could be wrong, probably am not though.

 

[Katzpur]

i'm just saying that its wrong to say you know of God. we are all without undeniable truth, we only have our thought and we should limit such to what is most truely clear. though i could be wrong, probably am not though.

You will NEVER hear me claim to know anything outside of my own experience. You will NEVER hear me insist that I am right and everybody else is wrong. So if you're looking for someone to pick a fight with on those grounds, keep looking.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'll tell you like I told Father Heathen two or three times (although it seems to me that neither of you are paying any attention anyway). Tea and coffee. Period. End of story. I realize that's terribly complicated, but I can't dumb it down a whole lot more than I already have.

I'm paying attention, but your response was a bit vague before: IIRC, you just said that it was clarified (without really saying how it was clarified) that "hot drinks" meant "coffee and tea". Does this mean that Joseph Smith or some later prophet later gave a clarification as the holy word of God? Does it mean that the church leadership used human understanding to decide what the intent of the commandment was?

If the latter, I can understand why it would be logical to assume that Smith wasn't talking about things like soda pop and energy drinks that didn't even exist while he was alive, but soup's hot (usually) and you drink it, so I don't see how human rationalization would lead a person to conclude that a mug of tomato soup isn't a hot drink.

If the former, that's cool... but I notice that you haven't yet said that this was the case. I could also see how defining "hot drinks" the way the LDS Church has could be based on extra information (maybe Brigham Young asking "Hey Joseph, what did you mean by 'hot drinks' in those commandments we got the other day?")... but I don't see how the commandment alone could lead to a prohibition on coffee (hot or cold) and tea (hot or cold) but not soup (even when hot).

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

In retrospect... don't worry about it. I am curious, but it's not worth being part of what seems like it might be turning into a "jump on the Mormons" session.

 

[Luminous]

You will NEVER hear me claim to know anything outside of my own experience. You will NEVER hear me insist that I am right and everybody else is wrong. So if you're looking for someone to pick a fight with on those grounds, keep looking.

I don't know anything outside my own experience.
I do not know if i am right.
but i believe all people are like me on those two grounds.
The only difference is that i am willing to confess it
Why wouldn't all people want to know the truth? and share the truth?
I don't know, you dont either. i have a thought, you have a thought.
In any case, this thread was on misconceptions on Mormonism. I have made it a trial on religion. i am sorry for this.:sorry1:
It is a stupid thing to have our thoughts fight eachother, iguess.

 

[Katzpur]

I'm paying attention, but your response was a bit vague before: IIRC, you just said that it was clarified (without really saying how it was clarified) that "hot drinks" meant "coffee and tea". Does this mean that Joseph Smith or some later prophet later gave a clarification as the holy word of God?

Joseph Smith, himself, is quoted as having taught: "I understand that some of the people are excusing themselves in using tea and coffee, because the Lord only said 'hot drinks' in the revelation of the Word of Wisdom. Tea and coffee are what the Lord meant when he said 'hot drinks.'"

Does it mean that the church leadership used human understanding to decide what the intent of the commandment was?

I don't know. Read what Joseph Smith said and decide what you think he meant. I suppose Joseph Smith could have "misunderstood" God, but he's not around to ask. Any time human beings are involved in the transmission of God's words, you run the chance for error. When the man is an ordained prophet, chosen by God himself, the risk is understandably less.

 

[Katzpur]

I don't know anything outside my own experience.
I do not know if i am right.
but i believe all people are like me on those two grounds.
The only difference is that i am willing to confess it
Why wouldn't all people want to know the truth? and share the truth?
I don't know, you dont either. i have a thought, you have a thought.
In any case, this thread was on misconceptions on Mormonism. I have made it a trial on religion. i am sorry for this.:sorry1:
It is a stupid thing to have our thoughts fight eachother, iguess.

I agree.

 

[Luminous]

Joseph Smith, himself, is quoted as having taught: "I understand that some of the people are excusing themselves in using tea and coffee, because the Lord only said 'hot drinks' in the revelation of the Word of Wisdom. Tea and coffee are what the Lord meant when he said 'hot drinks.'"

I don't know. Read what Joseph Smith said and decide what you think he meant. I suppose Joseph Smith could have "misunderstood" God, but he's not around to ask. Any time human beings are involved in the transmission of God's words, you run the chance for error. When the man is an ordained prophet, chosen by God himself, the risk is understandably less.

Thanks, i guess it is not nesisarily hipocritical to not drink tea and coffee but soda yes. sorry.:sorry1:

 

[Katzpur]

In retrospect... don't worry about it. I am curious, but it's not worth being part of what seems like it might be turning into a "jump on the Mormons" session.

It hasn't even approached that yet. Don't worry. Besides, when it gets there, you can just step in as a mod and smack a few of the offenders around.

 

[Katzpur]

Thanks, i guess it is not nesserality hipocritical to not drink tea and coffee but soda yes. sorry.:sorry1:

Apology accepted, and not really necessary in the first place.

 

[Father Heathen]

The point of following it is that it has been proven to result in better than average health. True, I would probably be healthier if I were not to drink so much Diet Coke, and I would be the first to admit that in this particular case, the spirit of the law is probably at least as important as the letter of the law. The fact remains, though, that members of the Church who are abstaining from tea, coffee, alcohol, and tobacco are living the Word of Wisdom. These people are following the law as it was given, which is a whole lot better than throwing it out entirely.

So why exactly are tea and coffee bad (even if they're cold), if not for the caffeine? What makes them worse than sodas if sodas are acceptable and they're not? I just want a rational explanation so I can better understand the viewpoint. I just want some logical consistency and justification. Something beyond "'cuz the book says so."

 

[Katzpur]

So why exactly are tea and coffee bad (even if they're cold), if not for the caffeine? What makes them worse than sodas if sodas are acceptable and they're not? I just want a rational explanation so I can better understand the viewpoint. I just want some logical consistency and justification. Some beyond "'cuz the book says so."

I wish I could help you, Father, but I don't think I'm going to be able to give you an answer you like. It's easy to speculate and say that coffee and tea both contain caffeine, so that must be the common factor. Then you don't have to worry about your Campbell's soup getting you kicked out of the Church, but you're left to wonder about your ice tea and Diet Coke. You've got to remember that the Word of Wisdom also included a prohibition against tobacco in any form. Well this was in 1838. There really was no medical knowledge at that time concerning how bad tobacco was for people, nor was there for another 125 years. As more research is done, the negative effects of tobacco continue to grow. Well, the Lord said, "No hot drinks." The man to whom He spoke said to the people, "God meant tea and coffee." So maybe it's the caffeine, but maybe it's not. I just can't make up an answer for you!

 

[Father Heathen]

I wish I could help you, Father, but I don't think I'm going to be able to give you an answer you like. It's easy to speculate and say that coffee and tea both contain caffeine, so that must be the common factor. Then you don't have to worry about your Campbell's soup getting you kicked out of the Church, but you're left to wonder about your ice tea and Diet Coke. You've got to remember that the Word of Wisdom also included a prohibition against tobacco in any form. Well this was in 1838. There really was no medical knowledge at that time concerning how bad tobacco was for people, nor was there for another 125 years. As more research is done, the negative effects of tobacco continue to grow. Well, the Lord said, "No hot drinks." The man to whom He spoke said to the people, "God meant tea and coffee." So maybe it's the caffeine, but maybe it's not. I just can't make up an answer for you!

If it's not the caffeine, then how do we know hot cocoa doesn't fall under it too, right? I mean it's a hot drink. And iced tea isn't hot, so why make the assumption that it's also forbidden? "Hot drinks" isn't exactly clear and concise, which you think God would be when it came to something that's supposed to be important. I mean why was it so hard for the powers beyond to simply say precisely what is bad and exactly why it is bad?
I'm not trying to "gang up on Mormons", it's just something that really perplexes me.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Joseph Smith, himself, is quoted as having taught: "I understand that some of the people are excusing themselves in using tea and coffee, because the Lord only said 'hot drinks' in the revelation of the Word of Wisdom. Tea and coffee are what the Lord meant when he said 'hot drinks.'"

Fair enough. So apparently there was more to it than just the commandment. Makes more sense now.

 

[Katzpur]

If it's not the caffeine, then how do we know hot cocoa doesn't fall under it too, right? I mean it's a hot drink. And iced tea isn't hot, so why make the assumption that it's also forbidden? "Hot drinks" isn't exactly clear and concise, which you think God would be when it came to something that's supposed to be important. I mean why was it so hard for the powers beyond to simply say precisely what is bad and exactly why it is bad?
I'm not trying to "gang up on Mormons", it's just something that really perplexes me.

I give up! Tea, coffee, alcohol and tobacco are forbidden. All practicing Mormons know that, and most are content to leave it at that. Some, feeling the need to figure out what might have been inadvertantly left out of the explanation, start deciding not to drink Diet Coke or Ice Tea. That's the risk God runs when He doesn't give us every last little detail. Maybe He wansts us to do a little bit of homework and figure things out for ourselves. Maybe He doesn't tell us why some of these things are bad for us, but leaves it up to us to take His word for it. I don't suppose He told Joseph that tobacco would cause cancer, heart disease, and emphacema, but they do. Sooner or later we tend to find out why we were told to obey, but it's not always right up front.

 

[Watchmen]

Father, it's called statutory interpretation and "hot drinks" has been interpreted as tea and coffee. Simple as that. The Church has never interpreted "hot drinks" as Coke, hot cocoa, or hot apple cider.