YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Yes, and the Arch of Titus in Rome was evidently constructed by the Romans in the first century, showing the Jews during the 1st century taken into captivity by the Romans.
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I Just Proved That Jesus Is A False Messiah In Less Than 5 Minutes
- Thread starter Only Reason
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- christianity judaism
Sure, Jesus is where he lives (Revelation 3:12) and his throne is heavenly (Revelation 3:21).
Jesus' heavenly rule over Earth comes with the start of his Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth for a thousand years as brought out at 1 Corinthians 15:24-26
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
What's UB?
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
ok, got it, thank you. (lol.) Celestial transport, thank you. Thanks for explaining your viewpoint. So just to reiterate, no evolution, rather celestial transport of ??? every animal as well as trees and flowers?
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
OK, thanks for explaining your viewpoint.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
That's what I suspected as you were talking. I was going to ask you about Kellogg, but you know at this point, it's so far away from me mentally and spiritually that I just tell you I choose the Bible.
love is perfect.
1 john 4:12
so being born of the spirit is about a state of love and not a state of materialism. 1st clean the inside of the cup and the outside will be clean also.
immaculate | Search Online Etymology Dictionary
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
So there we go. You're saying Mary and Anna and Jesus did not evolve. At least that what it sounds like to me.
joelr
Well-Known Member
Historical records? What? Let me use a historian to explain this:
3. “Jesus’s crucifixion is historically certain”
Bishop bases this on his assertion that “there are many independent sources that attest to Jesus’ crucifixion.” That assertion is false. Christian apologists are confusing the word “independent” with the word “different.” A hundred different sources attest to the existence of Hercules. But they are not independent sources. They all derive, directly or indirectly, from the same single source, a myth about Hercules. Who never existed.
There is in fact only one explicit source for the historicity of Jesus: the Gospel of Mark. All other sources that mention the crucifixion of Jesus as an event in earth history derive that mention from Mark, either directly (e.g. Matthew, Luke, John; Celsus; Justin; etc.) or indirectly, as Christians simply repeat the same claims in those Gospels, which all embellish and thus derive from that same one Gospel, Mark, and their critics simply believed them because they would have thought it was too self-damning to make up, and because there was no way for them to check.
When Paul mentions the crucifixion of Jesus, he never places that event on earth. In fact, he doesn’t appear to even know about it having happened at the hands of Romans or Jews at all, but the demonic forces of evil (OHJ, ch. 11.4, 11.7-8), just as was originally said in the Christian Gospel known as the Ascension of Isaiah (OHJ, ch. 3.1).
Tacitus and Josephus
Hence even if they actually mentioned Jesus (and this is actually doubtful: OHJ, ch. 8.9-10), Tacitus and Josephus are just repeating what Christians told them (or their informants), and those Christians were just repeating what the Gospels told them, and the Gospels are just repeating the story that first appeared in only one place: Mark. That’s not independent evidence. It’s useless.
4. “The Gospels”
“This should actually count for four reasons to accept Jesus’ existence as each Gospel is an independent account of his life.” Nope. See above. Every Gospel is just an embellished redaction of Mark. Even John. The synoptic Problem proves Mark is the source for at least the first 3. Also Mark is 100% fiction. We can get into that.
5. “The disciples’ deaths.”
There are no reliable sources for the disciples’ deaths. We have, at most, some ridiculous and late legends, based on no identifiable sources. We do not in fact know why or when they died. Or what they died for. This whole argument is therefore hosed from top to bottom.
11. “Paul met Jesus’ brother James, and Jesus’ disciple Peter”
Paul never mentions anyone being a disciple. The word “disciple” is unknown to Paul. He only knows Peter as an apostle, and only knows apostles as those who received revelations of Jesus (Gal. 1; 1 Cor. 9:1; Rom. 16:25-26). And Paul only ever refers to baptized Christians as brothers of the Lord (Rom. 8:29). He shows no awareness of Jesus having biological brothers (OHJ, pp. 108 and ch. 11.10).
18. “Josephus refers to Jesus, twice”
No, he almost certainly did not (OHJ, ch. 8.9). And even if he did, he used the Gospels as his source. So he can provide no independent evidence.
19. “Cornelius Tacitus refers to Jesus”
Actually, he probably didn’t (OHJ, ch. 8.10). And even if he did, he used Christians repeating the Gospels as his source (ibid.). So, he can provide no independent evidence.
This goes on and on with late historical mentions of Christians.
The gospel outline is a Greek dying/rising savior demigod. This was very popular and comes from Hellenism, as does souls going to Heaven, baptiam, eucharist and most every other change from Judaism to Christianity.
That stuff is 100% mythic and written 100% like a myth.
But the lost history is VERY telling. There is a mysterious blackout period where only by accident (found letters and hidden scripture) do we know anything. This is highly suspicious and clearly much information was erased from history.
There were new discoveries. The lost Gospels showed that Gnosticism was huge which contained completely different beliefs.
You believe the "outline of history in the NT" which is all a myth but don't believe historical information about where all the theology comes from?
This argument makes no sense. First deaths in the gospels are just stories. But we know for a demonstrable fact that people TODAY and in those times were giving up their lives for other religions? Which were myths? Is Islam true? Do you realize how many have died for the religion?
People following the Gospels are following a myth. What do you think the BILLIONS. of Islamic people are following? Or the Billions of Hindu?? Or the thousands of other religions? People dying for stories doesn't make them real.
Martyrdom was extensively promoted by the Tongmenghui and the Kuomintang party in modern China. Revolutionaries who died fighting against the Qing dynasty in the Xinhai Revolution and throughout the Republic of China period, furthering the cause of the revolution, were recognized as martyrs.[citation needed]
Despite the promotion of ahimsa (non-violence) within Sanatana Dharma, and there being no concept of martyrdom,[27] there is the belief of righteous duty (dharma), where violence is used as a last resort to resolution after all other means have failed. Examples of this are found in the Mahabharata. Upon completion of their exile, the Pandavas were refused the return of their portion of the kingdom by their cousin Duruyodhana; and following which all means of peace talks by Krishna, Vidura and Sanjaya failed. During the great war which commenced, even Arjuna was brought down with doubts, e.g., attachment, sorrow, fear. This is where Krishna instructs Arjuna how to carry out his duty as a righteous warrior and fight.
Islam[edit]
Shahid originates from the Quranic Arabic word meaning "witness" and is also used to denote a martyr. Shahid occurs frequently in the Quran in the generic sense "witness", but only once in the sense "martyr, one who dies for his faith"; this latter sense acquires wider use in the hadiths. Islam views a martyr as a man or woman who dies while conducting jihad, whether on or off the battlefield (see greater jihad and lesser jihad).[28] The concept of the martyr in Islam had been made prominent during the Islamic revolution (1978/79) in Iran and the subsequent Iran-Iraq war, so that the cult of the martyr had a lasting impact on the course of revolution and war.[29]
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joelr
Well-Known Member
Virgin birth.
From Mary Boyces work on the Persian religion dated to `1600 B.C.. Israel encountered them during the 2nd Temple Period 5-300 B.C.
Belief in a world Saviour - virgin born
An important theological development during the dark ages of 'the faith concerned the growth of beliefs about the Saoshyant or coming Saviour. Passages in the Gathas suggest that Zoroaster was filled with a sense that the end of the world was imminent, and that Ahura Mazda had entrusted him with revealed truth in order to rouse mankind for their vital part in the final struggle. Yet he must have realized that he would not himself live to see Frasho-kereti; and he seems to have taught that after him there would come 'the man who is better than a good man' (Y 43.3), the Saoshyant. The literal meaning of Saoshyant is 'one who will bring benefit' ; and it is he who will lead humanity in the last battle against evil. Zoroaster's followers, holding ardently to this expectation, came to believe that the Saoshyant will be born of the prophet's own seed, miraculously preserved in the depths of a lake (identified as Lake K;tsaoya). When the end of time approaches, it is said, a virgin will bathe in this lake and become with child by the prophet; and she will in due course bear a son, named Astvat-ereta, 'He who embodies righteousness' (after Zoroaster's own words: 'May righteousness be embodied' Y 43. r6). Despite his miraculous conception, the coming World Saviour will thus be a man, born of human parents,
Salvation from Greek Hellenism
https://wwwc.com/topic/Hellenistic-religion/Beliefs-practices-and-institutions
This shows all the Christian concepts come from Hellenism, a trend sweeping through all religions from 300 BC - 100Ad. This is why the "mystery religions" also had dying/rising sons/daughters of their one true God. Like Judaism they started out using Mesopotamian myths and then adopted Greek and Persian myths as well.
-the seasonal drama was homologized to a soteriology (salvation concept) concerning the destiny, fortune, and salvation of the individual after death.
-his led to a change from concern for a religion of national prosperity to one for individual salvation, from focus on a particular ethnic group to concern for every human. The prophet or saviour replaced the priest and king as the chief religious figure.
-his process was carried further through the identification of the experiences of the soul that was to be saved with the vicissitudes of a divine but fallen soul, which had to be redeemed by cultic activity and divine intervention. This view is illustrated in the concept of the paradoxical figure of the saved saviour, salvator salvandus.
-Other deities, who had previously been associated with national destiny (e.g., Zeus, Yahweh, and Isis), were raised to the status of transcendent, supreme
-The temples and cult institutions of the various Hellenistic religions were repositories of the knowledge and techniques necessary for salvation and were the agents of the public worship of a particular deity. In addition, they served an important sociological role. In the new, cosmopolitan ideology that followed Alexander’s conquests, the old nationalistic and ethnic boundaries had broken down and the problem of religious and social identity had become acute.
-Most of these groups had regular meetings for a communal meal that served the dual role of sacramental participation (referring to the use of material elements believed to convey spiritual benefits among the members and with their deity)
-Hellenistic philosophy (Stoicism, Cynicism, Neo-Aristotelianism, Neo-Pythagoreanism, and Neoplatonism) provided key formulations for Jewish, Christian, and Muslim philosophy, theology, and mysticism through the 18th century
- The basic forms of worship of both the Jewish and Christian communities were heavily influenced in their formative period by Hellenistic practices, and this remains fundamentally unchanged to the present time. Finally, the central religious literature of both traditions—the Jewish Talmud (an authoritative compendium of law, lore, and interpretation), the New Testament, and the later patristic literature of the early Church Fathers—are characteristic Hellenistic documents both in form and content.
-Other traditions even more radically reinterpreted the ancient figures. The cosmic or seasonal drama was interiorized to refer to the divine soul within man that must be liberated.
-Each persisted in its native land with little perceptible change save for its becoming linked to nationalistic or messianic movements (centring on a deliverer figure)
-and apocalyptic traditions (referring to a belief in the dramatic intervention of a god in human and natural events)
- Particularly noticeable was the success of a variety of prophets, magicians, and healers—e.g., John the Baptist, Jesus, Simon Magus, Apollonius of Tyana, Alexander the Paphlagonian, and the cult of the healer Asclepius—whose preaching corresponded to the activities of various Greek and Roman philosophic missionaries
Savior demigods who resurrect:
Dying-and-Rising Gods: It's Pagan, Guys. Get Over It. • Richard Carrier
Within the confines of what was then the Roman Empire, long before and during the dawn of Christianity, there were many dying-and-rising gods. And yes, they were gods—some even half-god, half-human, being of divine or magical parentage, just like Jesus (John 1:1-18; Matthew 1:18-25; Luke 1:26-35; Philippians 2:6-8 & Romans 8:3). And yes, they died. And were dead. And yes, they were then raised back to life; and lived on, even more powerful than before. Some returned in the same body they died in; some lived their second life in even more powerful and magical bodies than they died in, like Jesus did (1 Corinthians 15:35-50 & 2 Corinthians 5:1-10). Some left empty tombs or gravesites; or had corpses that were lost or vanished. Just like Jesus. Some returned to life on “the third day” after dying. Just like Jesus. All went on to live and reign in heaven (not on earth). Just like Jesus. Some even visited earth after being raised, to deliver a message to disciples or followers, before ascending into the heavens. Just like Jesus.
Every dying-and-rising god is different. Every death is different. Every resurrection is different. All irrelevant. The commonality is that there is a death and a resurrection. Everything else is a mixture of syncretized ideas from the borrowing and borrowed cultures, to produce a new and unique god and myth. In my article on virgin births, I also mentioned this about resurrected gods, with citations of all the evidence I already published under peer review in On the Historicity of Jesus
joelr
Well-Known Member
Baptism -
The Relationship between Hellenistic Mystery Religions and Early Christianity:
A Case Study using Baptism and Eucharist
Jennifer Uzzel
Baptism has been widely compared with initiation into the Mystery cults. In many of the Mysteries purification through ritual bathing was required as a prerequisite for initiation.
It is interesting to note that the early Christian writer Tertullian (c. 160-225CE) would not have agreed with this appraisal. Not only did he believe that certain of the Mysteries practiced baptism, but also that they did so in hope of attaining forgiveness of sins and a new birth. This was so striking a similarity that it clearly demanded some form of explanation. Not surprisingly, demonic imitation was the culprit.
The Nations, who are strangers to all understandings of spiritual powers, ascribe to their idols the imbuing of waters with the self-same efficacy. But they cheat themselves with waters that are widowed. For washing is the channel through which they are initiated into some sacred rites...of some notorious Isis or Mithras...at the Appolianrian or Eleusinian games they are baptised and they presume that the effect of their doing is their regeneration and the remission of the penalties due to their perjuries.
Another area where some have seen a link between Christian baptism and the Mystery religions concerns the Taurobolium associated with the cult of Cybele and Attis.
Eucharist.
-Perhaps the clearest point of contact between the Mysteries and Christian Eucharist, and one of which the Church Fathers were painfully conscious, lay in a sacramental meal of bread or cakes and wine mixed with water in which initiates to the cult of Mithras participated.
They seek salvation from the debased material world through a spiritual ascent through the spheres. Mithras was expected to return to earth to lead his followers in a final cataclysmic battle between good and evil.
-The Mithraic sacramental meal almost certainly predates Christianity and cannot, therefore, be contingent upon it.
-It seems likely that there was dialogue, friendly or otherwise, between the groups which led to ideological growth and development in both; with Christianity increasingly appropriating the language and ritual of the Cults in what it eventually came to refer to as the μυστηριον (mystery) of the Eucharist.
It is beyond doubt that substantial similarities exist between the rituals of baptism and Eucharist and the various sacral meals and initiations practised within the Mystery religions. These similarities extend beyond the forms of the rituals themselves into the purpose, symbolism and function of the rituals.
Heaven as a destination for redeemed souls,
From Sanders, Wright and Hundley, historical scholars
During the period of the Second Temple (c. 515 BC – 70 AD), the Hebrew people lived under the rule of first the Persian Achaemenid Empire, then the Greek kingdoms of the Diadochi, and finally the Roman Empire.[51] Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.[51] Consequently, their views on existence after death were profoundly shaped by the ideas of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.[52][53] The idea of the immortality of the soul is derived from Greek philosophy[53] and the idea of the resurrection of the dead is derived from Persian cosmology.[53] By the early first century AD, these two seemingly incompatible ideas were often conflated by Hebrew thinkers.[53] The Hebrews also inherited from the Persians, Greeks, and Romans the idea that the human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there.[51] The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness became increasingly popular during the Hellenistic period (323 – 31 BC).[44] Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead.[44]
2nd coming of a messianic figure and a final battle where all followers get resurrected and live on Earth in paradise,
Persian myth, 1600BC, introduced to Hebrews during 2nd Temple Period
Revelations
but Zoroaster taught that the blessed must wait for this culmination till Frashegird and the 'future body' (Pahlavi 'tan i pasen'), when the earth will give up the bones of the dead (Y 30.7). This general resurrection will be followed by the Last Judgment, which will divide all the righteous from the wicked, both those who have lived until that time and those who have been judged already. Then Airyaman, Yazata of friendship and healing, together with Atar, Fire, will melt all the metal in the mountains, and this will flow in a glowing river over the earth. All mankind must pass through this river, and, as it is said in a Pahlavi text, 'for him who is righteous it will seem like warm milk, and for him who is wicked, it will seem as if he is walking in the • flesh through molten metal' (GBd XXXIV. r 8-r 9). In this great apocalyptic vision Zoroaster perhaps fused, unconsciously, tales of volcanic eruptions and streams of burning lava with his own experience of Iranian ordeals by molten metal; and according to his stern original teaching, strict justice will prevail then, as at each individual j udgment on earth by a fiery ordeal. So at this last ordeal of all the wicked will suffer a second death, and will perish off the face of the earth. The Daevas and legions of darkness will already have been annihilated in a last great battle with the Yazatas; and the river of metal will flow down into hell, slaying Angra Mainyu and burning up the last vestige of wickedness in the universe.
Ahura Mazda and the six Amesha Spentas will then solemnize a lt, spiritual yasna, offering up the last sacrifice (after which death wW be no more), and making a preparation of the mystical 'white haoma', which will confer immortality on the resurrected bodies of all the blessed, who will partake of it. Thereafter men will beome like the Immortals themselves, of one thought, word and deed, unaging, free from sickness, without corruption, forever joyful in the kingdom of God upon earth. For it is in this familiar and beloved world, restored to its original perfection, that, according to Zoroaster, eternity will be passed in bliss, and not in a remote insubstantial Paradise. So the time of Separation is a renewal of the time of Creation, except that no return is prophesied to the original uniqueness of living things. Mountain and valley will give place once more to level plain; but whereas in the beginning there was one plant, one animal, one man, the rich variety and number that have since issued from these will remain forever. Similarly the many divinities who were brought into being by Ahura Mazda will continue to have their separate existences. There is no prophecy of their re-absorption into the Godhead. As a Pahlavi text puts it, after Frashegird 'Ohrmaid and the Amahraspands and all Yazads and men will be together. .. ; every place will resemble a garden in spring, in which
there are all kinds of trees and flowers ... and it will be entirely the creation of Ohrrnazd' (Pahl.Riv.Dd. XLVIII, 99, lOO, l07).
Mary Boyce, Zoroastrianism Their Beliefs and Practices
joelr
Well-Known Member
national God promoted to supreme God,
-Other deities, who had previously been associated with national destiny (e.g., Zeus, Yahweh, and Isis), were raised to the status of transcendent, supreme
https://wwwc.com/topic/Hellenistic-religion/Beliefs-practices-and-institutions
God vs the Devil
Historically, the unique features of Zoroastrianism, such as its monotheism,[5] messianism, belief in free will and judgement after death, conception of heaven, hell, angels, and demons, among other concepts, may have influenced other religious and philosophical systems, including the Abrahamic religions ...
During the Second Temple Period, when Jews were living in the Achaemenid Empire, Judaism was heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism, the religion of the Achaemenids.[26][8][27] Jewish conceptions of Satan were impacted by Angra Mainyu,[8][28] the Zoroastrian god of evil, darkness, and ignorance.[
Mary Boyce
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Creative!
But in spirit of the mythological lore, I see a problem. A conundrum, really.
Your argument necessarily assumes that Mary had a virgin birth. So it requires the acceptance of the biblical claim of a miraculous conception by god.
But if your conclusion is that Jesus is not a Messiah, that would mean that such passages are false.
This would in turn mean that Joseph is the father, which is a problem for your argument - because then Jesus is in fact in the David lineage.
But then he is the messiah and the bible is correct. So then it's a virgin birth.
Ow but then he is not the messiah because he's not from the David lineage. So it's false.
But then he is from the David lineage... So correct.
Ow no, then he isn't.
He is.
He isn't.
He is
He isn't.
...
Please someone get me out of this infinite loop!!!
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
DKH
Member
It is my belief/opinion that the idea that the virgin birth of the (only begotten) Son of Yahweh (the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) could somehow be related to paganism could be construed as a clear example of blasphemy. Hence, I reject any such idea or belief.
It is also clear that though-out the N.T. that the Anointed (Jesus) claimed that his Father is the heavenly Father and the word Father is capitalized. This is done so that there is no confusion on who the Anointed is referring to. Especially, for those who may believe in a heaven or hell doctrine.
Where does it say they converted to anything? God just asked them to repent of their sinful ways and later after this he did destroy Nineveh.
Colt
Well-Known Member
I don't believe many things in the Bible. To me the Old Testament was vastly exaggerated by the Israelite priest class during the Babylonian captivity. I believe that the kind of stubborn proud men who conspired to kill Jesus wrote the scripture books.
Jedster
Well-Known Member
Creative!
But in spirit of the mythological lore, I see a problem. A conundrum, really.
Your argument necessarily assumes that Mary had a virgin birth. So it requires the acceptance of the biblical claim of a miraculous conception by god.
But if your conclusion is that Jesus is not a Messiah, that would mean that such passages are false.
This would in turn mean that Joseph is the father, which is a problem for your argument - because then Jesus is in fact in the David lineage.
But then he is the messiah and the bible is correct. So then it's a virgin birth.
Ow but then he is not the messiah because he's not from the David lineage. So it's false.
But then he is from the David lineage... So correct.
Ow no, then he isn't.
He is.
He isn't.
He is
He isn't.
...
Please someone get me out of this infinite loop!!!
The only way out of infinite is to us the goto statement, which isn't that popular in programming etiquette/style, however sometimes it is necessary.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
The only way out of infinite is to us the goto statement, which isn't that popular in programming etiquette/style, however sometimes it is necessary.
I once fired a guy for over using it!
I'm not joking!
To be fair, it was the 3rd time in a row that he had that remark on his code review.
3 strikes and you're OUT!
Colt
Well-Known Member
The Jews also used the same belief that God wrote the scripture books as a basis for rejecting Jesus. Similar superstition was used when rejecting Old Testament prophets. Fetishism stunts growth and blinds sincere believers. "The prophets have usually led the people in religious development; the theologians have usually held them back."