Identical symbolism in Non-Abrahami and Abrahamic Scriptures

[Vinayaka]

The more you read, the clearer it all becomes. Just like the quatrains of Nostradamus.

It's just because I'm an Idiot, with very poor English skills, or ...

Thus listened the unknowing Apple, falling up, not down, as That Ray of Ignorance verily attempted, successfully to hinder the Almighty Ones holy dissertation.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"...Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity...."

Not clear to me ... Who is thyself? Who is the Beauty? Why is Beauty capitalised? Is it saying the person who turns away has pride? Or not? What does all eternity to all eternity mean? Isn' there just one eternity?

This can be seen to contain a small amount of symbolism as it is written in King James style english. Once this style is understood better, its meaning also becones more apparent.

That would be the same in any language, I would guess.

Thyself is the person reading the passage and that person is being told to be assured of the truth you are just about to read.

This Beauty is Gods Mesenger and is the Author of the passage one is reading, it has a capital, as it is God Speaking as that Beauty.

All eternity to all eternity I see is just saying from the beginning to the end. Time is of this world and it is saying if one rejects this Beauty, then they have rejected God in all times past and in all the time to come.

It is in deeper thought saying Death is in such a rejection. Thus the loud trumpet blast, it is a passage aimed at awakening our soul to what we can be.

I was reading last night that Baha'u'llah revealled so much, that most went unrecorded, as no one could keep up with it. Every day and every night the equivalent amount of verses to match the Quran passed from that Beauty and none of it needed correction, even when quoting traditions from any faith.

It is an amazing world we live in, I hope for a day when we all look into the symbolism.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So, within the Bahai religion, there is not a clear, definitive understanding of who were and who were not Messengers.

Considering that Bahai is based on the concept of different Messengers for different times, I find that to be, how to put it politely, puzzling.

One other puzzling thing is the timing aspect - one Messenger for each different time. Yet within just a few years you had The Bab and Bahá'u'lláh. Then Bahá'u'lláh shut the door and said no more Messengers for 2000 years. I guess it's a good thing, for your belief system, that The Bab didn't make such a pronouncement.

The important thing is to accept the Messenger applicable to the day we live in.

Christ said Elijah always comes first. For the promised day of God, Elijah, the Gate (Bab) was also given direct Revelation from God. The Message of the Bab was to prepeare humanity for Baha'u'llah.

Baha'u'llah said 1000 years before the next Messenger.

God doeth as He Willeth and for us it is to look for the good in all things and do good.

Regards Tony

 

[ManSinha]

There are many listed and they One and All, are a perfect reflection of God.

The Messengers that still have followers to this day are;

Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus Christ, Muhammad the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

The Koran lists more and Baha'u'llah has also mentioned more, but traces of them have been lost in time.

Regards Tony

There is a certain individual who goes by the name Ramchandra often shortened to Ram

He is rumored to have existed around 2000 years prior to Krishna - and was a manifestation of Lord Vishnu - a contemporary of the monkey god Hanuman
He is also regarded as a god in his own right and still continues to have plenty of followers - no mention of his name?

 

[Vinayaka]

If the Beauty was referring to himself, he should have just used 'me', 'myself', or I'. Why have a million self-aggrandizing words? (Perhaps that is the point, after all though.) There is no such thing as simple understandable language in Baha'ispeak.

As a Baha'i, I'm sure you're used to it, as it's perhaps most, if not all you read. But as a non-Baha'i, it just comes across as severe egotistical ranting. Many self-declared prophets, (even ones on here) aren't nearly as conceited about themselves.

But not just that, he also goes on to say that if you don't believe in him, you're the one that's conceited, proud about God. Huge illogical jumps.

 

[Vinayaka]

There is a certain individual who goes by the name Ramchandra often shortened to Ram

He is rumored to have existed around 2000 years prior to Krishna - and was a manifestation of Lord Vishnu - a contemporary of the monkey god Hanuman
He is also regarded as a god in his own right and still continues to have plenty of followers - no mention of his name?

Baha'ullah picked 8, and only 8, and then included himself. Any other wise men are held as lower, not manifestations. It most certainly excludes a whole lot of religious historical leaders.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If the Beauty was referring to himself, he should have just used 'me', 'myself', or I'. Why have a million self-aggrandizing words? (Perhaps that is the point, after all though.) There is no such thing as simple understandable language in Baha'ispeak.

As a Baha'i, I'm sure you're used to it, as it's perhaps most, if not all you read. But as a non-Baha'i, it just comes across as severe egotistical ranting. Many self-declared prophets, (even ones on here) aren't nearly as conceited about themselves.

It is said to explain spiritual reality requires material words or stories so we can gain a picture that is metephor for the spiritual state.

Thus what do we see when Beauty is used. It is all things Good, it is a mighty sea on a clear bright sunny day, etc etc.

We look beyond the giver of the Message into the words and metephor to gain an insight of what it is to be a spiritual being.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

It is said to explain spiritual reality requires material words or stories so we can gain a picture that is metephor for the spiritual state.

Thus what do we see when Beauty is used. It is all things Good, it is a mighty sea on a clear bright sunny day, etc etc.

We look beyond the giver of the Message into the words and metephor to gain an insight of what it is to be a spiritual being.

You see a spiritual being. I see a deluded egotistical madman. Simple as that.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There is a certain individual who goes by the name Ramchandra often shortened to Ram

He is rumored to have existed around 2000 years prior to Krishna - and was a manifestation of Lord Vishnu - a contemporary of the monkey god Hanuman
He is also regarded as a god in his own right and still continues to have plenty of followers - no mention of his name?

Baha'ullah picked 8, and only 8, and then included himself. Any other wise men are held as lower, not manifestations. It most certainly excludes a whole lot of religious historical leaders.

All Messengers have been acknowledged. All Prophets and saints have been acknowledged.

Sorry ran out of time.

Regards Tony

 

[ManSinha]

Baha'ullah picked 8, and only 8, and then included himself. Any other wise men are held as lower, not manifestations. It most certainly excludes a whole lot of religious historical leaders.

I have been reading the Kitab-i-Aqdas translation available here

And this just blew me away:

"Should anyone intentionally destroy a house by fire, him also shall ye burn; should anyone deliberately take another’s life, him also shall ye put to death."

And

"No marriage may be contracted without payment of a dowry, which hath been fixed for city dwellers at nineteen mithqáls of pure gold, and for village dwellers at the same amount in silver. Whoso wisheth to increase this sum, it is forbidden him to exceed the limit of ninety-five mithqáls. Thus hath the command been writ in majesty and power. If he content himself, however, with a payment of the lowest level, it shall be better for him according to the Book."

Finally

"Should the garb of anyone be visibly sullied, his prayers shall not ascend to God, and the celestial Concourse will turn away from him. Make use of rose water, and of pure perfume; this, indeed, is that which God hath loved from the beginning that hath no beginning, in order that there may be diffused from you what your Lord, the Incomparable, the All-Wise, desireth."

Are the poor who cannot afford better being put down?

 

[Vinayaka]

I have been reading the Kitab-i-Aqdas translation available here

And this just blew me away:

"Should anyone intentionally destroy a house by fire, him also shall ye burn; should anyone deliberately take another’s life, him also shall ye put to death."

And

"No marriage may be contracted without payment of a dowry, which hath been fixed for city dwellers at nineteen mithqáls of pure gold, and for village dwellers at the same amount in silver. Whoso wisheth to increase this sum, it is forbidden him to exceed the limit of ninety-five mithqáls. Thus hath the command been writ in majesty and power. If he content himself, however, with a payment of the lowest level, it shall be better for him according to the Book."

Finally

"Should the garb of anyone be visibly sullied, his prayers shall not ascend to God, and the celestial Concourse will turn away from him. Make use of rose water, and of pure perfume; this, indeed, is that which God hath loved from the beginning that hath no beginning, in order that there may be diffused from you what your Lord, the Incomparable, the All-Wise, desireth."

Are the poor who cannot afford better being put down?

He was in the time of Islam's propensity, and he was born into an aristocratic family, so that explains a lot of it. But the constant dehumanising of others is a bit much for me also. Seeing burning an arsonist is a bit much. We're just really lucky they're not in charge of the planet now.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I have been reading the Kitab-i-Aqdas translation available here

And this just blew me away:

"Should anyone intentionally destroy a house by fire, him also shall ye burn; should anyone deliberately take another’s life, him also shall ye put to death."

And

"No marriage may be contracted without payment of a dowry, which hath been fixed for city dwellers at nineteen mithqáls of pure gold, and for village dwellers at the same amount in silver. Whoso wisheth to increase this sum, it is forbidden him to exceed the limit of ninety-five mithqáls. Thus hath the command been writ in majesty and power. If he content himself, however, with a payment of the lowest level, it shall be better for him according to the Book."

Finally

"Should the garb of anyone be visibly sullied, his prayers shall not ascend to God, and the celestial Concourse will turn away from him. Make use of rose water, and of pure perfume; this, indeed, is that which God hath loved from the beginning that hath no beginning, in order that there may be diffused from you what your Lord, the Incomparable, the All-Wise, desireth."

Are the poor who cannot afford better being put down?

One has to consider it is the Laws for this age, suited to the times. Some of these laws yet to be implemented as the time is not right.

The ones quoted are yet to be implemented. The death penalty in all cases is up to the law makers, as life in prision has also been allowed for. The maximun penalty has been given.

These laws will be implemented, as humanity sees the wisdom to do so.

I have lived in a very poor country and I can tell you they do not know this law of cleanliness, but they abide by it fully. I never see any if them at a spiritual gathering that have not done their best to be clean and be in clean cloths.

Also great material health wisdom in this as well.

The Dowery is very modest.

These laws are also a balance between religions with next to none compared to thise that are ruled by Law.

Regards Tony

 

[ManSinha]

One has to consider it is the Laws for this age, suited to the times. Some of these laws yet to be implemented as the time is not right.

The ones quoted are yet to be implemented. The death penalty in all cases is up to the law makers, as life in prision has also been allowed for. The maximun penalty has been given.

These laws will be implemented, as humanity sees the wisdom to do so.

I have lived in a very poor country and I can tell you they do not know this law of cleanliness, but they abide by it fully. I never see any if them at a spiritual gathering that have not done their best to be clean and be in clean cloths.

Also great material health wisdom in this as well.

The Dowery is very modest.

These laws are also a balance between religions with next to none compared to thise that are ruled by Law.

Regards Tony

@Tony Bristow-Stagg - now you come across as an apologetic

This to me solidifies that the religion is rooted in the 19th century and not "the new religion for the new age" - the punishments are barbaric to say the least -
India is trying to root out dowry with laws given that even "modest" amounts have led to suicides among kids / parents unable to afford that sum.

And you said "Some of the laws yet to be implemented as the time is not right" - I do not believe that time will ever be right to burn someone for arson

 

[TransmutingSoul]

@Tony Bristow-Stagg - now you come across as an apologetic

This to me solidifies that the religion is rooted in the 19th century and not "the new religion for the new age" - the punishments are barbaric to say the least -
India is trying to root out dowry with laws given that even "modest" amounts have led to suicides among kids / parents unable to afford that sum.

And you said "Some of the laws yet to be implemented as the time is not right" - I do not believe that time will ever be right to burn someone for arson

We have a lot to face in this world and opinions do change. Consider I also have to find the Balance in these laws as well. I have studied and found my balance. Some feel they do not have to and tine will unfold what will be.

The new world thought is not something I would support with too much eagerness. I really appreciate the morality that has now been lost for quite some time, we will find it again, as my journey shows to me it is possible on a grander scale. My grandmother would never offer any swear word, darn was very bad. People wore more cloths on the beach, quite appropriate in my opinion.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

We have a lot to face in this world and opinions do change. Consider I also have to find the Balance in these laws as well. I have studied and found my balance. Some feel they do not have to and tine will unfold what will be.

The new world thought is not something I would support with too much eagerness. I really appreciate the morality that has now been lost for quite some time, we will find it again, as my journey shows to me it is possible on a grander scale. My grandmother would never offer any swear word, darn was very bad. People wore more cloths on the beach, quite appropriate in my opinion.

You're changing the topic. So I'll bring it back. Do you feel, that for arson, death by burning is an appropriate punishment? In the law book, it does say that life imprisonment is one option, but that is capital punishment is the chosen option, it should be by burning. For that matter, do you believe that life imprisonment is appropriate?

On theft, do you also feel that an identifying mark on the forehead is appropriate, after the third offense? These are the laws written by Baha'ullah, after all.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You're changing the topic. So I'll bring it back. Do you feel, that for arson, death by burning is an appropriate punishment? In the law book, it does say that life imprisonment is one option, but that is capital punishment is the chosen option, it should be by burning. For that matter, do you believe that life imprisonment is appropriate?

On theft, do you also feel that an identifying mark on the forehead is appropriate, after the third offense? These are the laws written by Baha'ullah, after all.

I really do not have to offer any more than what the Law says. They are yet to be considered by humanity and unless and until the majority does consider them, it matters not what I think. What I have considered is what are the diverse views in the world on this.

Some would give a slap on the wrist and sing a Kumbaya, some would do a lot worse.

In the end strong deterants are needed, but nature and nurture also needs to change to teach morality again. There may be a time when any crime is seen as a great transgression from life and if God has provided the punishment for that crime, then so be it. The guilty may even also want to partake of the penalty.

Who knows? No me in this age.

I would be happy to have a fireside with you every day of the week and sing Kumbaya, or what you choose.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You see a spiritual being. I see a deluded egotistical madman. Simple as that.

I see that there is great bounty in looking for the good in all things.

Again you are welcome anytime for a fireside chat.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

I really do not have to offer any more than what the Law says. They are yet to be considered by humanity and unless and until the majority does consider them, it matters not what I think. What I have considered is what are the diverse views in the world on this.

Some would give a slap on the wrist and sing a Kumbaya, some would do a lot worse.

In the end strong deterants are needed, but nature and nurture also needs to change to teach morality again. There may be a time when any crime is seen as a great transgression from life and if God has provided the punishment for that crime, then so be it. The guilty may even also want to partake of the penalty.

Who knows? No me in this age.

I would be happy to have a fireside with you every day of the week and sing Kumbaya, or what you choose.

Regards Tony

As I suspected, that was a non-answer. Personally I see burning someone as just absolutely brutal. I think most western governments of today would have really fair punishments for arson. I am happy with Canada's laws for sure. They're nor revenge. Burning someone to death because he has a diagnosed mental disability about fire seems cruel and inhumane to me. But then again, your prophet is infallible, so I guess your answer lies there.

Edited ... Canada's arson laws ... Canadian Criminal Sentencing/Offences/Arson - Wikibooks, open books for an open world

 

[Vinayaka]

I see that there is great bounty in looking for the good in all things.

Again you are welcome anytime for a fireside chat.

Regards Tony

Oh, I'm just an investigator of truth. These days such people are treated in our very humane mental health institutions, fortunately, unless they can hold back the delusion enough to hold a job, support themselves, and otherwise contribute to society.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

They're nor revenge

Neither are the Baha'i Laws aimed at revenge, but I suspect you would not like to see how that is so.

I can say many Jews, Christains and Muslims could answer that for you as well, as Gods/Allah's Laws are not for revenge, they are pure justice.

Regards Tony