Identical symbolism in Non-Abrahami and Abrahamic Scriptures

[siti]

I am pretty sure, the original word in Buddhist Scriptures, literally means 'resurrect'

Are you? Would you kindly direct me to the original "Buddhist Scriptures" version of the account in question - I have only found it in a 19th century book written in English so far.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

There is mythical gods and then there is fictional characters in comic books and movies. Next, the "Author", I assume you mean God, wrote symbolic expressions you say to relay inner meanings. But, then you say only God can reveal those hidden meanings. And when is that? Now? With Baha'u'llah? That the true meanings were hidden for hundreds and even thousands of years?

God does not reveal them, untill the time is right.
You can see same concept explained in Buddhism Scriptures:
It is recordd In The Sutra of Mañjuśrī’s Questions
That Mañjuśri asked Buddha that, if the Buddha is omniscient, why does he not realize ahead of time
Budhha ....etc etc.

Buddha answered:

Mañjuśrī, I am like the doctor. I understand that sentient beings mayh ave predominantly great desire, great anger, or great stupidity, and that
they may have a long or short life span and evil or good karma. Although I have prior understanding of these things I do not speak of them when
the time is not right.
....
If any sentient being is able to listen to the Dharma, I will preach it for them
If they cannot stand to listen, I will not do so.
....

Compare these words, with what Jesus said to His disciples " I still have many things to say, but you cannot bear it now!"

Thus, Christ and many Prophets did not speak explicitly sometimes, if people of Their time were not ready to know. Instead, They spoke using parables, figures, Metaphors and riddles. In this manner they did not explicitly say things, but left it for a future Manifestation to reveal it, when the time was right and people were ready to here!

 

[ManSinha]

In this manner they did not explicitly say things, but left it for a future Manifestation to reveal it, when the time was right and people were ready to here!

You mean people were ready to "hear"

Also this is your explanation of the matter - I still do not understand why

1. god would put his message out in confusing terms (we are a confused lot to start with)
2. his "messengers" would further complicate the issue by, as you mention, speak in figures / metaphors and riddles

You are digging your arguments into a hole here - it is meant to be simplified not obfuscated for the message to be dispersed and understood widely

As you well know - speaking in riddles does, among other things, allow 10 different individuals to have 15 different meanings of it.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Here you act as if the Flood and the Ark were real. But, other times you say they were symbolic. So which is it?

No, here also I meant it symbolically. The flood kill people. But in the scriptures, 'death', is spiritual death, and flood is all those things that is killing people spiritually. All the sin people are engaged now is the flood, which has comes, and which were at the time of Noah.

The other problem... 1844. That is supposedly the "return of Christ". But, Baha'is have three returns of Christ, Muhammad, and then the "twin manifestations" of The Bab and Baha'u'llah. Which one is the most important "return"? Shouldn't it be Baha'u'llah. But where are all the prophecies that tell of the day Baha'u'llah declared himself? Wasn't it 1863? Why don't you ever talk of the significance of that date? And show all the prophecies that point to it?

Not a problem, because, there is no difference between Muhammad, Jesus, the Bab, the Buddha or Bahaullah. If you call each one as the Christ, it is true in Bahai view. Year 1863, is expressed as 1280 Days in Bible.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You mean people were ready to "hear"

Also this is your explanation of the matter - I still do not understand why

1. god would put his message out in confusing terms (we are a confused lot to start with)
2. his "messengers" would further complicate the issue by, as you mention, speak in figures / metaphors and riddles

You are digging your arguments into a hole here - it is meant to be simplified not obfuscated for the message to be dispersed and understood widely

As you well know - speaking in riddles does, among other things, allow 10 different individuals to have 15 different meanings of it.

The Messengers spoke two different type of language. One is the clear language. They spoke clearly those things that people were ready to understand and practise. But the other language, the figurative was used when certain things could not be revealed explicitly.
Those things that They explained in clear language has been always enough for the people as guidance.

 

[Vinayaka]

You mean people were ready to "hear"

Also this is your explanation of the matter - I still do not understand why

1. god would put his message out in confusing terms (we are a confused lot to start with)
2. his "messengers" would further complicate the issue by, as you mention, speak in figures / metaphors and riddles

You are digging your arguments into a hole here - it is meant to be simplified not obfuscated for the message to be dispersed and understood widely

As you well know - speaking in riddles does, among other things, allow 10 different individuals to have 15 different meanings of it.

I have yet to see any quote of the Baha'i prophet in clear language. Perhaps someone here can provide one.

 

[ecco]

I was of the understanding that Buddha is not considered to be a supernatural god. However,...

That Mañjuśri asked Buddha that, if the Buddha is omniscient, why does he not realize ahead of time
Budhha ....etc etc.Buddha answered:

Mañjuśrī, I am like the doctor. I understand that sentient beings mayh ave predominantly great desire, great anger, or great stupidity, and that
they may have a long or short life span and evil or good karma. Although I have prior understanding of these things I do not speak of them when
the time is not right.

...this makes it clear that Buddha considers himself to be omniscient and Mañjuśrī considers him to be omniscient.

So, please help out a confused atheist.

 

[ecco]

The Messengers spoke two different type of language. One is the clear language. They spoke clearly those things that people were ready to understand and practise. But the other language, the figurative was used when certain things could not be revealed explicitly.
Those things that They explained in clear language has been always enough for the people as guidance.

RE: But the other language, the figurative was used when certain things could not be revealed explicitly.

Is that the reason that most of Bahá’u’lláh's writing are such garbled mishmash?

 

[ecco]

The Messengers spoke two different type of language.

Who are the Messengers?

 

[ManSinha]

But the other language, the figurative was used when certain things could not be revealed explicitly.

Then why speak at all? Did the messengers not know the value of silence?
If one does not want something given away one stays silent -

It goes back to my earlier post - your explanation on their behalf makes little sense to those that think without your belief in the religion.

 

[ecco]

I have yet to see any quote of the Baha'i prophet in clear language. Perhaps someone here can provide one.

See my post #88 above.

 

[ManSinha]

Who are the Messengers?

I am speaking for IT but I believe Christ, Muhammad, Krishna, Buddha and Baha'u'llah are the ones mentioned

 

[ecco]

I am speaking for IT but I believe Christ, Muhammad, Krishna, Buddha and Baha'u'llah are the ones mentioned

I appreciate your input. But I need to hear the actual Bahai beliefs.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I have yet to see any quote of the Baha'i prophet in clear language. Perhaps someone here can provide one.

There is a lot of clear passages, the thing is many of them are a direct challenge to us all, such as this passage from the Tablet of Ahmad. Even though it is adressed to Ahmad, it is applicable to all.

"...Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity...."

That is a Trumpet blast that the Bible talks about.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Who are the Messengers?

I am speaking for IT but I believe Christ, Muhammad, Krishna, Buddha and Baha'u'llah are the ones mentioned

I appreciate your input. But I need to hear the actual Bahai beliefs.

There are many listed and they One and All, are a perfect reflection of God.

The Messengers that still have followers to this day are;

Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus Christ, Muhammad the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

The Koran lists more and Baha'u'llah has also mentioned more, but traces of them have been lost in time.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

There are many listed and they One and All, are a perfect reflection of God.

The Messengers that still have followers to this day are;

Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus Christ, Muhammad the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

The Koran lists more and Baha'u'llah has also mentioned more, but traces of them have been lost in time.

Regards Tony

I've mentioned this before, but I don't think that Jews see Abraham and Moses as "perfect" reflections of God. So why do Baha'is? And then the same with Muhammad? Do Muslims see him as a "perfect" reflection of God? Oh, and then there is Krishna. What religion did he start? The Hare Krishna's?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I've mentioned this before, but I don't think that Jews see Abraham and Moses as "perfect" reflections of God. So why do Baha'is? And then the same with Muhammad? Do Muslims see him as a "perfect" reflection of God? Oh, and then there is Krishna. What religion did he start? The Hare Krishna's?

That would be going over very old ground.
, nice try for a laugh.

Now if I was to say Krishna started Hinduism, I wonder who that would bring back?

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

There is a lot of clear passages, the thing is many of them are a direct challenge to us all, such as this passage from the Tablet of Ahmad. Even though it is adressed to Ahmad, it is applicable to all.

"...Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity...."

That is a Trumpet blast that the Bible talks about.

Regards Tony

Not clear to me ... Who is thyself? Who is the Beauty? Why is Beauty capitalised? Is it saying the person who turns away has pride? Or not? What does all eternity to all eternity mean? Isn' there just one eternity?

If this is an example of clarity, I can't imagine what an example of figuratively would look like.

 

[ecco]

There are many listed and they One and All, are a perfect reflection of God.

The Messengers that still have followers to this day are;

Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus Christ, Muhammad the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

The Koran lists more and Baha'u'llah has also mentioned more, but traces of them have been lost in time.

Regards Tony

So, within the Bahai religion, there is not a clear, definitive understanding of who were and who were not Messengers.

Considering that Bahai is based on the concept of different Messengers for different times, I find that to be, how to put it politely, puzzling.

One other puzzling thing is the timing aspect - one Messenger for each different time. Yet within just a few years you had The Bab and Bahá'u'lláh. Then Bahá'u'lláh shut the door and said no more Messengers for 2000 years. I guess it's a good thing, for your belief system, that The Bab didn't make such a pronouncement.

 

[ecco]

Not clear to me ...
If this is an example of clarity, I can't imagine what an example of figuratively would look like.

The more you read, the clearer it all becomes. Just like the quatrains of Nostradamus.