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IDF publishes unedited footage showing Hamas equipment in al-Shifa hospital
- Thread starter Harel13
- Start date
Colt
Well-Known Member
Its a common practice, provoke a response and use the collateral damage of the response to justify the provocation. People who didn't support Israel to begin with have a crystal clear, 20/20 vision of the consequences of the response!I disagree… I have never proposed a tit for tat….that is your interpretation. All I have said is that Israel has military targets and tries to tell civilians leave
It is about the removal of those who have no heart for life:
Israeli police say extreme sexual violence, rape by Hamas terrorists was systematic
While no victims of sex crimes by Hamas Oct. 7 have come forward, police say they have documented multiple cases and are investigating brutal crimes against women.www.foxnews.com
I asked you to give scriptural support for your statement from a complete view of scripture… you haven’t done it. Remember that Jesus knew the law too.
How can you find “notable errors” when they all come from the same source, Hamas?
Again… you are giving percentages… how about actual data and not a figure that can be verified.
However… https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...amas-war/0000018b-325c-d450-a3af-7b5cf0210000
There is no evidence of any rapes, and Islam forbids rape. The Bible has similar verses that seems to okay rape of war captives, too, before you attempt to go that route.
Yeah, right.
Police start building Oct. 7 rape cases, focusing on footage and testimonies
'Not a traditional rape investigation': Police say they have multiple witnesses, are focusing on gathering circumstantial evidence as physical proof gleaned from bodies is limited
www.timesofisrael.com
October 7 massacre proves #MeToo doesn't apply to Jewish women - opinion
Anywhere else, the #MeToo movement would have swung into action, yet women in Israel have not been afforded any support.
m.jpost.com
Etc
From Haartz:Yeah, right.
Police start building Oct. 7 rape cases, focusing on footage and testimonies
'Not a traditional rape investigation': Police say they have multiple witnesses, are focusing on gathering circumstantial evidence as physical proof gleaned from bodies is limited
October 7 massacre proves #MeToo doesn't apply to Jewish women - opinion
Anywhere else, the #MeToo movement would have swung into action, yet women in Israel have not been afforded any support.
Etc
"Until now, clear evidence of sex crimes has come from accounts by members of Zaka, the ultra-Orthodox volunteer organization that helps to retrieve and identify bodies. Their accounts described many bodies of women who were naked and bore signs of brutality and abuse."
Ie, hearsay from extremist Zionist fundaloons, like the beheaded babies and cooked baby nonsense. Yawn.
Fact Sheet: Israel’s History of Spreading Disinformation | IMEU
The Institute for Middle East Understanding (IMEU) is a non-profit organization that offers journalists facts, analysis, experts, and digital resources about Palestine and Palestinians.
I wouldn't parade such ignorance on my sleeve if I were you.
First, you have been quote-mining. What happened after "until now"?
Here are some more quotes:
"An eyewitness told police in the past few days that she had seen the gang rape and murder of a young woman hiding from Hamas terrorists who were wearing military uniforms. “They bent someone over,” the witness said. “I realized he was raping her and passing her on to someone else also in uniform.”
The witness said that subsequently one of the rapists shot the young woman in the head, and several of the terrorists mutilated her body.
Another witness who has recounted the incident to police was a man who was hiding behind the eyewitness and didn’t see the rape. He said she told him at the time what she saw."
More evidence was presented in the other two articles, which I assume you didn't bother reading.
Second, do you know what ZAKA is? It's an emergency response organization in charge of retrieving and identifying dead bodies, typically from accidents and terrorist attacks. That that most of their volunteers are ultra-Orthodox doesn't make them radicals (shows what you know about ultra-Orthodox Jews: Nothing). It isn't a political organization. It's the Red Cross for dead people, in Israel.
Oh, and by the way, nearly 20 years ago Arabs and Druze started volunteering in ZAKA. Here's an interview with one who assisted in the "clean up". Is he also an "extremist Zionist fundaloon"?
Israel has been caught lying multiple times during this war, such as by spreading atrocity propaganda (like the beheaded babies and "Hamas terrorists" being in every nook and cranny in Gaza). So I tend to not believe anything they say until it's been verified by outside sources after an investigation, especially by ones who are not known to shy away from speaking out against Israel's wrongdoing, like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch (shows less bias). I don't accept hearsay as proof of anything. I mean, there's eyewitnesses from the settlements that were attacked who said the Palestinian fighters treated them humanely.
There's conflicting views in what happened that day, and the disinfo war is still playing out.Yes, it seems I was wrong about Zaka as an organization (I was mixing it up with the extremist who spread the beheaded babies lie), but my point still stands.
That doesn't disprove that rapes and beheadings occurred.there's eyewitnesses from the settlements that were attacked who said the Palestinian fighters treated them humanely.
There's a super-viral story about a woman named Rachel Edri who single-handedly saved her husband and herself from the terrorist unit who took them hostage in their own house in the city of Ofakim on October 7. Rachel managed to do it because she knew Arabic and was able to sweet-talk them into calming down enough to let their guard down, which in turn allowed local police officers to enter the house and save the Edri couple (Google her name for more info). So, there were some rare cases in which terrorists appeared to have acted in a slightly more humane manner. But that doesn't mean that all of them acted that way, and reports so far suggest that the vast majority of them did not act this way.
I'm not saying it did, and we're all still awaiting evidence of beheadings.
Perhaps, but this isn't clearing anything up for me about what really happened. There's reports that the Israelis killed their own people by helicopter shelling and cross fire: "Shoot at everything": How Israeli pilots killed their own civilians
So we don't even know how many Israelis were killed by Israeli forces firing indiscriminately and how many were killed by Palestinians. Even Israel had to lower the Israeli death toll by 200 because it turned out many of those mangled, burnt to a crisp corpses were Palestinians. Hmm.
I linked some stuff for you last week, maybe you missed it. Here they are again:
Baseless claim that Israeli media probe found no babies beheaded by Hamas | Fact check
The Haaretz newspaper called the claims baseless. It reported in October that the bodies of decapitated babies had been found after the attacks.
www.usatoday.com
Evidence on Display at Israel’s Forensic Pathology Center Confirms Hamas’ Atrocities - The Media Line
Stifling the urge to retch became a difficult […]
themedialine.org
Poynter, PolitiFact 'fact check' misleads on beheadings - JNS.org
If these organizations are the credible fact checkers they claim to be, they owe readers an apology.
www.jns.org
Undoubtedly many of the events of that first week of fighting still have to be properly looked into. That's not to say that all stories should be discounted, especially when multiple officials from various organizations attest to the same occurrences. There were rapes, there were beheadings, there were mutilations, there were people burned to death, and so forth.
But that's not so much of a "hmm" as you present it. Israel gave an early rough estimation. Everyone who actually followed along knew it was a rough estimation while hardworking men and women worked day and night to identify the bodies and prepare them for proper burial. I find it to be completely nuts that it's now week 7 and Israel still hasn't finished identifying all of the bodies and figuring out how many people were murdered. It took weeks just to figure out who was kidnapped - Hamas of course, sick and twisted as they are, couldn't be bothered to share that information.
Ironically, people actually believe that Hamas's Ministry of Health can give exact numbers of people killed on their side, or close rough estimates, with names and ID numbers. Here Israel has no idea who died over a month in, but Hamas somehow has all the info. That's highly illogical to say the least.
Orbit
I'm a planet
A couple of things:I linked some stuff for you last week, maybe you missed it. Here they are again:
Baseless claim that Israeli media probe found no babies beheaded by Hamas | Fact check
The Haaretz newspaper called the claims baseless. It reported in October that the bodies of decapitated babies had been found after the attacks.www.usatoday.com
Evidence on Display at Israel’s Forensic Pathology Center Confirms Hamas’ Atrocities - The Media Line
Stifling the urge to retch became a difficult […]
Poynter, PolitiFact 'fact check' misleads on beheadings - JNS.org
If these organizations are the credible fact checkers they claim to be, they owe readers an apology.
Undoubtedly many of the events of that first week of fighting still have to be properly looked into. That's not to say that all stories should be discounted, especially when multiple officials from various organizations attest to the same occurrences. There were rapes, there were beheadings, there were mutilations, there were people burned to death, and so forth.
But that's not so much of a "hmm" as you present it. Israel gave an early rough estimation. Everyone who actually followed along knew it was a rough estimation while hardworking men and women worked day and night to identify the bodies and prepare them for proper burial. I find it to be completely nuts that it's now week 7 and Israel still hasn't finished identifying all of the bodies and figuring out how many people were murdered. It took weeks just to figure out who was kidnapped - Hamas of course, sick and twisted as they are, couldn't be bothered to share that information.
Ironically, people actually believe that Hamas's Ministry of Health can give exact numbers of people killed on their side, or close rough estimates, with names and ID numbers. Here Israel has no idea who died over a month in, but Hamas somehow has all the info. That's highly illogical to say the least.
In times of war, atrocity rumors are common on both sides. They are usually debunked after the conflict is over. Propaganda is rampant everywhere. It's called the fog of war, so you can't be sure exactly what's going on.
As far as the death toll goes, the Israeli human rights organization BTselem has stated that they have found Hamas Health Ministry's death numbers to be accurate in past conflicts, and see no reason to doubt them in this conflict.
So all of these medical officials are liars, or what?
Feh. Btselem is a radical far-left group. Ignoring usage of biased sources works both ways.
Less than a month ago Biden stated that he has no reason to believe that the Palestinian numbers are accurate.
Bear in mind that Hamas doesn't differentiate between military and civilian casualties, as well as not differentiating between death from the fighting and death by other causes.
Orbit
I'm a planet
Israelis seem to think the very idea of human rights is biased. I see nothing "radical left" about advocating for human rights.
The U.N. and others have accepted death toll numbers for years, across many conflicts, and have not found a problem with them.
Additionally, more bombs have been dropped on Gaza in a month than the U.S. dropped in Afghanistan for a year. Do you think those bombs don't kill anyone? That the death toll would be high is blindingly obvious. Those bombs are dropped on a population which is about half children. But what bothers you is that you can't tell which of the dead belong to Hamas?
"In response, Israel's military has launched near-continuous airstrikes on the Gaza Strip, killing over 10,000 Palestinians, according to Gaza's Health Ministry, and displacing nearly 1.5 million people, according to United Nations figures."
I know, the scope of errors is huge and cutting off funding and/or sanctions could cause further damage.
Where I identify a major problem is how the narratives conveyed give the new generations many layers of incorrect convictions. For example; the dividing of populations as normal is based on the belief of exceptionalism (god's chosen) but sold as 'everyone hates us'- antisemitism to maintain dividing populations as normal.
You're talking about a country that from the get-go offered full rights to its non-Jewish civilians, and maintains those rights to its citizens. This is the same country that has provided medical assistance to Syrian rebels (I should know, I was part of a unit that took care of the bodies of those that didn't make it), rebels who were slaughtered by the thousands by our "wonderful" next-door neighbors in Syria. This is the same country that gave asylum to the members of the South Lebanon Army after being persecuted by Hezbollah. This is the only country in the region where LGBT people can live in peace. The above statement is completely baseless. What is true is that there are several well-known human rights groups that are extremely biased and even antisemitic, Btselem being one of them.
So, more to the point. I could assemble a detailed post analyzing the hypocrisies of Btselem. I would look over a few select reports and break them down, and provide statistical information if I can find it. That will clarify why I don't trust Btselem and find them to be a radical group. But I will only do that if you agree to read it and not immediately wave it away, and if you disagree with it, you will take the time to carefully explain why. Otherwise it will be a complete waste of my time, and it will be a waste of a large amount of time (I expect it'll take a number of hours at least). Tell me if you're interested, and I'll get to it. If not, then I won't, and we can continue this pointless virtual equivalent of a shouting match as we continue to call each other's sources biased until the end of time, or until XenForo finally crashes.
Geez, no one said no one died. I am not an idiot nor am I blind. But I have no reason to believe that Hamas's numbers are correct, or even close to correct. First, we're talking about an evil terror group, who would love nothing more than a compelte ceasefire to restock on rockets and get back to training their men for the next massacre. They have a major incentive to convince the West any way possible to demand Israel stop its attack. Second, the vast majority of north Gazans have already evacuated to the south. It took time, no thanks to Hamas, but it happened. That raises the question of the plausibility of a certain number of people dying from each bomb. You probably realize that one bomb doesn't equal 10,000 people, nor do 10 bombs. Furthermore, Israel constantly warned the Gazans to get out of the way, in various ways: Leaflets, personal phone calls, etc. Some probably did their best to get out of the way. Lastly, once again, Hamas doesn't differentiate between civilian and military deaths. And yes, this is very important, unless you're going to tell me you care about the Hamas fighters who were killed, in which case I have nothing more to say to you. So, are there really 10,000 dead? And did they all die from Israeli attacks? What about the supposed 500 that were killed from the Islamic Jihad failed rocket at the Al-Ahli parking lot? Is that Israel's fault as well? Are we really looking at 5000 dead children all from Israeli military operations, or maybe we're looking at 2000 dead children, 1000 dead grown up civilians and 7000 dead grown up Hamas fighters? Or maybe all numbers are even lower?
So yes, I am bothered that people are waving around Hamas's baseless numbers. Whoever does that is knowingly or unknowingly assisting Hamas, a well-known terror group, in achieving its goals.
By the way, you mentioned bombs at Afghanistan. When was the last time you spilled a tear over tragedies in other places around the world? How about 1.7 million Afghans being kicked out of Pakistan as we speak? What about the Yemenites terrorized by the Houthis for who knows how many years? When was the last time you gave a nickel to help a Syrian being slaughtered by Assad? This isn't whataboutism. This is me asking why you care all of a sudden.
And a reminder: If you're interested in a detailed post on Btselem, I will do it. But only if you agree to the above terms, because I do have other things to do with my life. We are at war, after all.
Orbit
I'm a planet
I disagree with you about the human rights issue. There are numerous human rights issues that affect Palestinians, that Israelis deny, but are blindingly obvious to the outside observer. I too could crash the server by listing them.
I don't think you have any evidence for the death numbers being baseless. Just one look at the satellite imagery of Gaza should tell you that the numbers are reasonable.
When my tax dollars are used to slaughter children for 44 days running, I object, and I have a right to.
As for the rest of the world, I also object to atrocities and human rights abuses wherever they occur, but in the context of this thread, to bring that up is pure red herring.
Really? Have you posted on atrocities in other places in the world in the past? Or does Israel top them all and only it deserves your undivided attention?
It appears that very few Israel apologists
will admit that apartheid even exists, no
matter how much evidence is offered
regarding de facto oppression.
It appears that few Israel haters know what the word apartheid means and can actually explain how that applies to Israel.
Unlike so many here, we've investigated
the word's proper usage, & apply without
pro-Israel blind prejudice.
I suppose that many Jews & Israelis are
also Israel haters? I eagerly await your
explanation of these news items...
More American Jews are calling Israel an ‘apartheid’ state, and big organizations are struggling to fight the trend - Jewish Telegraphic Agency
"Organizations look at many members of the Jewish community, including particularly younger ones, and disregard them," said the head of one group.
www.jta.org
Why an Israeli Human-Rights Organization Decided to Call Israel an Apartheid Regime
There is no guarantee that B’Tselem’s statement will enable change, although it has infuriated the government.