If "everything is energy" then what does this mean?

[Aupmanyav]

Frankly, I don't much get into it one way or the other, taking the position of "whatever is, is".

Excellent. Take care of your present like Lord Buddha said.

.. the concept of what supposedly happens with "moksha" is quite different that that which supposedly happens with "nirvana" as they are simply not interchangeable words.

Many things are said because many cannot understand the finer points. Sure, you may have different views. But as for me, all these are the same.

 

[Aupmanyav]

1. I mean an enduring peace..your body is yet to go through the travails of the attrition of aging and death.. Of course if you are permanently our of body in the avatarical sense, please do say so...
2. Duality is not considered Nirvana...
3. What relevance does what you find meaning in have to do with the absolute...only when the mind is free from conceptualization as the only means of understanding is it liberated...

1. Indian religions do not counts bodily pains. Like Buddha said, there is no escape from disease, old age and death. That is normal. The form is anatta, anicca; and so are its 'vyadhis' (problems).
Remember the sutta where Buddha said that Brahma, Indra and all the Gods could not find 'tathagata' because he was gone, gone, truly gone, gone beyond any finding (gate gate paragate parasamgate).
2. Non-duality considers ignorance, and end of ignorance is jnana, nirvana, moksha, etc.
3. We cannot conceptualize the absolute, not yet, we do not have the data. Mind cannot understand anything without conceptualization. That is perhaps something for science and future (not in my life-time). But the absolute (Paramarthika in 'advita') is totally different from the observed (Vyavaharika), very much like Newtonian physics and Quantum Mechanics.

 

[atanu]

....
My best advise to those who are fascinated by the stillness and the silence is to be attentive. Pay attention and listen to the silence. Eventually you just might hear something in that silence. At first, it will seem to be no more than a whisper of a whisper, coming from all around you but also from nowhere in particular. In some ways, the stillness and silence is a doorway. A hub, if you like, through which many tantalizing adventures in consciousness can be known. But, if you are happy at the doorway, stay as long as you like. It's all good.

2:27 am... not bad.

Ymir, I mean no disrespect and I am not contradicting what you say. But instead of attending outwardly I suggest attending to the source first. When one attains to the object-less silence one can attend to that which knows/sees/experiences the silence.

 

[godnotgod]

My best advise to those who are fascinated by the stillness and the silence is to be attentive. Pay attention and listen to the silence. Eventually you just might hear something in that silence.

Nirvana and Samsara are not different. There is not Samsara here and Nirvana over there. It is the discursive mind which thinks there is only Samsara and no Nirvana. Were you to be truly silent and truly paying attention, you would see that the very Samsaric world you are now in is none other than Nirvana. That is the transformation of consciousness that occurs when a shift away from the discursive 'monkey mind' occurs. The world becomes transformed right before your eyes, because now, you are seeing it as it actually is, rather than how the mind conceptualizes it to be. That Nirvana and Samsara are one is also reflected in the Zen view that The Ordinary and The Miraculous are one, and that Brahman and maya are one. That Nirvana is The Absolute can only be realized when the the cessation of the mind occurs, and Samsara is understood as being none other than Nirvana, and vice versa. There are not two realities, but only one, and this is it, right here, right now, and not in some 'other' realm.

“Samsara (i.e., the empirical life-death cycle) is nothing essentially different from nirvana. Nirvana is nothing essentially different from samsara” (MMK XXV, 19, trans. K.K. Inada).

Nagarjuna: Mulamadhyamakakrika

 

[YmirGF]

Ymir, I mean no disrespect and I am not contradicting what you say. But instead of attending outwardly I suggest attending to the source first. When one attains to the object-less silence one can attend to that which knows/sees/experiences the silence.

Atanu, you are wise enough to hear what I'm trying to say. It took so long to write my comments last night because I was attempting to convey a non-dual perspective in verbal terms. It is a given that attention would focus on the source. That is exactly what I was and am meaning. Remember, in that "state" of awareness, there is no inner and outer... and that's why the sound I allude to is so incredibly amazing once one begins to hear it... No, not with the physical ear.... well, not at first, at least....

I hope you understand that though we have spared a few times over the years that I have the deepest respect for your opinions and thinking. Unlike others, who will remain nameless, you actually make intelligent points.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

1. Indian religions do not counts bodily pains. Like Buddha said, there is no escape from disease, old age and death. That is normal. The form is anatta, anicca; and so are its 'vyadhis' (problems).
Remember the sutta where Buddha said that Brahma, Indra and all the Gods could not find 'tathagata' because he was gone, gone, truly gone, gone beyond any finding (gate gate paragate parasamgate).
2. Non-duality considers ignorance, and end of ignorance is jnana, nirvana, moksha, etc.
3. We cannot conceptualize the absolute, not yet, we do not have the data. Mind cannot understand anything without conceptualization. That is perhaps something for science and future (not in my life-time). But the absolute (Paramarthika in 'advita') is totally different from the observed (Vyavaharika), very much like Newtonian physics and Quantum Mechanics.

1. I was not clear...I mean a permanent peace....never to be disturbed in all eternity....
2. Thoughts and concepts imply mental activity....mental activity implies duality....duality implies no non-duality. Nirvana is present only when there is no thought, no concepts, no mental activity...non-duality...union..oneness
3. Conceptualization means using symbols or thoughts to represent the real....an infinite number of the most brilliant scientists in the universe can never in all eternity create a mathematical equation or model of existence that is existence.... not even a sparrow....duality can never be non-duality.. The photo of an apple is not an apple...the finger pointing to the moon is not the moon..

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I.Brahman, which is in your form. The books said 'Tat twam asi' (That is what you are).

My question was to Rick, and the context was that Rick was saying that Nirvana is experienced with insight... I was asking him to show him that for there to be an experience, there is an experiencer.....hence duality......hence no Nirvana.... Nirvana implies non-duality. Read the full exchange to understand the context...

 

[Ben Dhyan]

More drivel.

Be specific.....this is a debate forum...

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Drivel.

Please try and be constructive and explain your reasoning...

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Pure drivel, please shut this thread down.

If you do not agree with me, then that is no big deal, it happens that people are not in agreement all the time....mature people normally can agree to disagree..or ignore. But it seems if you can't have your way, you want to shut the thread down...

 

[atanu]

Atanu, you are wise enough to hear what I'm trying to say. It took so long to write my comments last night because I was attempting to convey a non-dual perspective in verbal terms. It is a given that attention would focus on the source. That is exactly what I was and am meaning. Remember, in that "state" of awareness, there is no inner and outer... and that's why the sound I allude to is so incredibly amazing once one begins to hear it... No, not with the physical ear.... well, not at first, at least....

I understand that you are trying to describe the indescribable. But I am from a different school and what little experience I have is different.

We are taught to not go to sleep or not get lost in experiences of light, sound etc., which are objects of consciousness and not the consciousness itself.

The objects come and go. They are forms and they are created. These do not constitute the unborn, uncreated, and the unformed.

We are taught to either remain as seer of objects and maintain an enquiry as to what or who is aware of the objects. Or we may reject the arising objects as not unborn-not self.

There have been rare experience of objectless awareness wherein the seer and seen are no more distinguishable. Then arises the wisdom that the objectless, boundary-less awareness is unborn.

I hope you understand that though we have spared a few times over the years that I have the deepest respect for your opinions and thinking. Unlike others, who will remain nameless, you actually make intelligent points.

See, I do not believe in any real other.

The 'other' of the waking state is essentially same as 'others' that come up in dream state. If there is a 'troll' that is trying to bother, that is the mind throwing up variety, and that is samsara. Of course, often I get lost in the notion that the 'other' is real. But more often I am able to overcome the mAyA.

I hope I could convey some sense.
.....

In essence, there are different experiences but they are all born.

 

[YmirGF]

I understand that you are trying to describe the indescribable. But I am from a different school and what little experience I have is different.

We are taught to not go to sleep or not get lost in experiences of light, sound etc., which are objects of consciousness and not the consciousness itself.

The objects come and go. They are forms and they are created. These do not constitute the unborn, uncreated, and the unformed.

We are taught to either remain as seer of objects and maintain an enquiry as to what or who is aware of the objects. Or we may reject the arising objects as not unborn-not self.

There have been rare experience of objectless awareness wherein the seer and seen are no more distinguishable. Then arises the wisdom that the objectless, boundary-less awareness is unborn.



See, I do not believe in any real other.

The 'other' of the waking state is essentially same as 'others' that come up in dream state. If there is a 'troll' that is trying to bother, that is the mind throwing up variety, and that is samsara. Of course, often I get lost in the notion that the 'other' is real. But more often I am able to overcome the mAyA.

I hope I could convey some sense.
.....

In essence, there are different experiences but they are all born.

I do understand and enjoy our often spirited, pun intended, conversations. In your terms, my thinking is a derivative or expansion of both Buddhist and Vaisnava thought, though I left both of those schools behind long ago. In both cases, there are distinct aspects that I now reject outright, that once formed the basis of my understanding. In some cases there are idea I have morphed from their original sources that now bear little resemblance to their point of origin. The reason that I now reject is, by and large, because they no longer match or sync up with my experiential data.

When I weigh my state of mind, the peace that I enjoy and the relentless bliss that I have been blessed with for so long, I know that I am making progress. I am a keen enough observer of my experience to know when what I hear from others does not make sense or is perhaps the result of a less observant understanding. At the same time I can almost smell authenticity when I come across it and sadly, aside from yourself and @Aupmanyav and a few others, I don't feel a lot of authenticity in this thread from some participants. I do hear a lot of highly speculative nonsense however.

 

[Aupmanyav]

2. Thoughts and concepts imply mental activity....mental activity implies duality....duality implies no non-duality. Nirvana is present only when there is no thought, no concepts, no mental activity...non-duality...union..oneness.

I do not subscribe to the second sentence. Jnana, nirvana, moksha is present when one understands. And that is in full presence of mind. In the normal perceived world, duality will always be there, there is nothing wrong with that. One has to understand that below the duality, there is a non-duality. Nirvana is seeing the non-duality while remaining in duality. In 'advaita' the two levels of truth are designated as 'Vyavaharika Satya (Pragmatic Truth) and 'Paramarthika Satya (Absolute Truth). Both are true in their own sense and both have to be acknowledged.

We see/conceptualize the sparrow, the moon, and all other things in the perceived world. We conceptualize our own self in Vyavahrika level. If we turn to Absolute level, it will turn out to our senses as absolutely blank, the blue screen of Windows. None of what exists will be there. It is a different language all together. It will be like a Linux command given on a windows computer. It will be like a 12 watts machine connected to a 430 watts supply. Nirvana is having a bridge between the two worlds and being able to traverse that at will not loosing the sight of any of the two worlds.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I do not subscribe to the second sentence. Jnana, nirvana, moksha is present when one understands. And that is in full presence of mind. In the normal perceived world, duality will always be there, there is nothing wrong with that. One has to understand that below the duality, there is a non-duality. Nirvana is seeing the non-duality while remaining in duality. In 'advaita' the two levels of truth are designated as 'Vyavaharika Satya (Pragmatic Truth) and 'Paramarthika Satya (Absolute Truth). Both are true in their own sense and both have to be acknowledged.

We see/conceptualize the sparrow, the moon, and all other things in the perceived world. We conceptualize our own self in Vyavahrika level. If we turn to Absolute level, it will turn out to our senses as absolutely blank, the blue screen of Windows. None of what exists will be there. It is a different language all together. It will be like a Linux command given on a windows computer. It will be like a 12 watts machine connected to a 430 watts supply. Nirvana is having a bridge between the two worlds and being able to traverse that at will.

Of course there is nothing wrong with duality when involved with matters of the temporary material life....but this mind can never see, feel, experience non-duality. what happens is that whenever the mind ceases thought for whatever reason, the non-duality is present by default. Non-duality is always present but is beyond realization by the thinking mind.. So what happens to people such as yourself who remember the non-dual mind state presence when back in the duality mode, you think you had the non-dual mind state experience. This is a grave error which can and will prevent you from realizing enlightenment. One must understand that enlightenment is being in the non-dual mind state permanently and since a mortal can not function in this material world in a non-dual state permanently, staying in the non-dual mind state will lead to the opening of the 7th chakra and a non-material buddha emerges....no more reincarnations in the material spheres...

 

[Aupmanyav]

I do not believe in woo like Kundalini and Chakras. If Buddha and so many other Hindu sages could become enlightened while interacting in the world, I do not see any reason why others cannot do that. I would not like to be a non-duality zombie. The test is when one can understand and function in both the states.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I do not believe in woo like Kundalini and Chakras. If Buddha and so many other Hindu sages could become enlightened while interacting in the world, I do not see any reason why others cannot do that. I would not like to be a non-duality zombie. The test is when one can understand and function in both the states.

There no other way to realize enlightenment but from an incarnation in matter! All the enlightened beings you refer to interacted in the world of good and evil karma, but they learned to go beyond and ultimately realized enlightened immortality.

They first learned that the dualistic mind is intrinsic to incarnation, and the result is the ego self. But if the ego self is made to be quiescent, non-duality is present.... Conversely when the ego self once again begins to think, non-duaity is not present....

Still they were not enlightened due to this ability to still their mind. They next learned that it is not the ego that experiences non-duality when the ego thought processes were stilled. .And so they now understood that the mind in duality, the ego mind, did not play any part in the mind in non-duality, but to the contrary....an ego mind that thinks it had experienced the non-duality that was present is deluded....and a liar..

They next learned that to truly be enlightened, the ego mind must be transcended at will and for longer and longer periods...and so with a passion to go beyond duality permanently, it led them to the day when they could leave the body for extended periods and to learn to function in the non-material realms....

It is in this phase that the Buddha can teach the unenlightened, and hence there needs to be a degree of time spent in the body and conceptual mind for this purpose. When the teaching of the unenlightened results in some initiates to carry on, at an appropriate time, permanent union takes place and life in the material realms is no more...

 

[Aupmanyav]

Abandoning ego and being 'tatastha' (uninvolved) is not difficult for a practitioner in Dharmic religions. Perhaps it is a culture thing.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Abandoning ego and being 'tatastha' (uninvolved) is not difficult for a practitioner in Dharmic religions. Perhaps it is a culture thing.

True....practice makes perfect...

 

[Runewolf1973]

Somewhere along the line I lost all interest and desire to be enlightened...

Could care less about this whole seeing duality or non-duality thing. The universe doesn't care. Only in our messed up minds do we think this is somehow important or necessary to our being.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Somewhere along the line I lost all interest and desire to be enlightened...

Could care less about this whole seeing duality or non-duality thing. The universe doesn't care. Only in our messed up minds do we think this is somehow important or necessary to our being.

Fine....but some here consider the prospect of continued karma and reincarnation sufficient motivation to get off the wheel of suffering through liberation/enlightenment....in this lifetime.