If "everything is energy" then what does this mean?

[idav]

Except for the fact that you still think the elephant is the trunk, or the tail, or the ear, since you are relying on perceptual reality, rather than Ultimate Reality, and for the fact that you are not REALLY a dragon-slayer.

But you are not looking at the Source; you are looking at the Outcome of the Source.

Nobobdy is arguing perception is limited. People are arguing perception is possible.

 

[godnotgod]

Nobobdy is arguing perception is limited. People are arguing perception is possible.

It is not only limited, it is inadequate. It is useful to a limited degree for our navigation within the context of our environment, but inadequate when it comes to getting a glimpse into the true nature of Reality. For that we need another kind of consciousness, one that is unconditioned. Perception is conditioned awareness, conditioned by the concepts of Time, Space, and Causation, and so we see the world as dictated by this conditioned awareness, and not as it actually is. Surely you must admit that at least Quantum Physics has shown us a side of reality never dreamed possible with our Newtonian approach.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Except for the fact that you still think the elephant is the trunk, or the tail, or the ear, since you are relying on perceptual reality, rather than Ultimate Reality, and for the fact that you are not REALLY a dragon-slayer.

But you are not looking at the Source; you are looking at the Outcome of the Source, and looking at it through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation. Therefore, you see it not as it actually is, but how your conditioned awareness thinks it is. You still see the rope as a 'snake', deny it as you may.

This is how it is from the Zen POV:

"When I began my study of Zen, mountains were just mountains, and trees were just trees.

During my study of Zen, mountains were no longer mountains, and trees no longer trees.

When I became enlightened, mountains were once again mountains, and trees once again trees"

Except this...except that...except it makes no difference. Do you see youself as being separate from others just because their views are different than yours? If all is truly One, then our position in the universe is the same regardless of our different beliefs, or views, or superstitions.

 

[yiostheoy]

It is a fact that we are our brains. Until there is evidence to even remotely suggest that we are more than our brains then it is fantasy to say our minds are non-local

Sure, "I" is an illusion but I don't think it in the same way. It's an illusion because it is material processes not requiring some special soul. Your argument makes the ego more real than a materialist does.

Your statement contains the fallacy of argument from ignorance.

The state of ignorance does not give credence to either answer either way.

You need to google "argument from ignorance" and see what it says.

 

[godnotgod]

It is a fact that we are our brains. Until there is evidence to even remotely suggest that we are more than our brains then it is fantasy to say our minds are non-local

Sure, "I" is an illusion but I don't think it in the same way. It's an illusion because it is material processes not requiring some special soul. Your argument makes the ego more real than a materialist does.

That's ridiculous. Show me how the material brain creates the non-material notion of 'I'.

You can say 'we are our brains' as a reflection of Emergent Theory, but the fact is, and purely from a physical POV, our entire organism is 100% part of the Universe. So if you are going to claim that, then you may as well say: 'We are the Universe', as in 'universal', as in 'universal consciousness'.

 

[yiostheoy]

So your argument is based on the fallacy, appeal to ignorance. Got it.

And yet another fallacy ad hominem, attacking the character of Einstein rather than debating his theories.

Do you have anything pro or con toward whats being debated?

Yah Einstein was a sex maniac huh? No doubt, no diggity.

 

[idav]

It is not only limited, it is inadequate. It is useful to a limited degree for our navigation within the context of our environment, but inadequate when it comes to getting a glimpse into the true nature of Reality.

Agree with this. but then you say....

For that we need another kind of consciousness, one that is unconditioned.

This isn't true and as you allude to this...

Surely you must admit that at least Quantum Physics has shown us a side of reality never dreamed possible with our Newtonian approach.

Suggests we found a way to peak behind the curtain without tapping into some sort of higher level consciousness. Humans are already at a higher level consciousness with only newtonian physics as far as we can tell.

 

[godnotgod]

Except this...except that...except it makes no difference. Do you see youself as being separate from others just because their views are different than yours? If all is truly One, then our position in the universe is the same regardless of our different beliefs, or views, or superstitions.

That is not the issue. The issue is that we see the true nature of things in the wrong way. We see what we only think is ''interaction", when it is actually illusory; we see the rope as a snake. The problem comes in how we respond to what we think is real. The rest is history and the current chaotic state of the world.

 

[godnotgod]

Agree with this. but then you say....

This isn't true and as you allude to this...

Suggests we found a way to peak behind the curtain without tapping into some sort of higher level consciousness. Humans are already at a higher level consciousness with only newtonian physics as far as we can tell.

Understand that Quantum Physics is still only giving us a view of behavior and characteristics, but still not one of the true nature of things. We still don't know, via science, what the information Quantum Physics provides actually means. Higher Consciousness is the key to this. It puts Quantum knowledge into the right perspective. Sure, we know that the virtual mass of the atom is created via fluctuations in the Unified Field, but we haven't a clue as to what that is about.

Correction: we are at a higher level of factual knowledge; not a higher level of consciousness.

 

[Runewolf1973]

That is not the issue. The issue is that we see the true nature of things in the wrong way. We see what we only think is ''interaction", when it is actually illusory; we see the rope as a snake. The problem comes in how we respond to what we think is real. The rest is history and the current chaotic state of the world.

I don't see any real issues. If it's all pure nothingness as you say, then the problems you see are only in your head.

 

[godnotgod]

I don't see any real issues. If it's all pure nothingness as you say, then the problems you see are only in your head.

Until you act upon them, and jump into the pool you thought was filled with water. Now do you have a real issue?

ISIS members have many ideas in their heads, which of themselves matter not one whit. But they act upon those ideas, and are the cause of much suffering. Do we now have a real issue?

What it comes down to is not what's in your head, but what's not in your head; about what you see, and not what you think you see.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Until you act upon them, and jump into the pool you thought was filled with water. Now do you have a real issue?

ISIS members have many ideas in their heads, which of themselves matter not one whit. But they act upon those ideas, and are the cause of much suffering. Do we now have a real issue?

So now you are saying these interactions are real?

 

[idav]

Understand that Quantum Physics is still only giving us a view of behavior and characteristics, but still not one of the true nature of things. We still don't know, via science, what the information Quantum Physics provides actually means. Higher Consciousness is the key to this. It puts Quantum knowledge into the right perspective. Sure, we know that the virtual mass of the atom is created via fluctuations in the Unified Field, but we haven't a clue as to what that is about.

We have a clue because the experiments give repeatedly the same results and only verify our predictions which shows we are far from being clueless.

We have a clue as to what is going on, quantum interpretation debates as to how. We know that non-locality is possible with quantum entanglement and we know that the entanglement had to involve physical contact of some sort in order for it to work. We also know that not everything can just be entangled or remain entangled by default due to quantum decoherence.

Correction: we are at a higher level of factual knowledge; not a higher level of consciousness.

same difference

 

[godnotgod]

So now you are saying these interactions are real?

No, that there is suffering because they are acted upon as real. This is the point at which the Buddha stepped in, to steer people away from the cause of their sufferings, causes which are illusory.

Has Quantum Physics shown you that you live in a virtual world?

 

[godnotgod]

We have a clue because the experiments give repeatedly the same results and only verify our predictions which shows we are far from being clueless.

We have a clue as to what is going on, quantum interpretation debates as to how. We know that non-locality is possible with quantum entanglement and we know that the entanglement had to involve physical contact of some sort in order for it to work. We also know that not everything can just be entangled or remain entangled by default due to quantum decoherence.

same difference

No. It is a huge difference.

We have clues, but still no understanding as to what the clues mean.

 

[Runewolf1973]

No, that there is suffering because they are acted upon as real. This is the point at which the Buddha stepped in, to steer people away from the cause of their sufferings, causes which are illusory.

Has Quantum Physics shown you that you live in a virtual world?

No, it has shown that interactions/fluctuations occur even at the most fundamental, quantum level. The cause of suffering is change...the relief from suffering is change. That may mean a change in the way people do things, or a change in the way people think. Inaction does not relieve people from suffering.

 

[godnotgod]

No, it has shown that interactions/fluctuations occur even at the most fundamental, quantum level. The cause of suffering is change...the relief from suffering is change. That may mean a change in the way people do things, or a change in the way people think. Inaction does not relieve people from suffering.

Inaction is not the cause of suffering in the first place.

The relief from suffering is to stop the changes you embarked upon which created the suffering in the first place.

The cause of suffering is ignorance, such as when you act upon something you think is true, but is not true. Usually, your intelligence is overridden by your desire.

Those interactions/fluctuations are what is creating the virtual mass of the atom, the foundation for the so-called 'material' world. So doesn't this show you that you live in a virtual world, rather than a material one? But the fluctuations themselves are illusory, just as the undulating 'snake' is an illusion, albeit on a higher level of Reality.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Inaction is not the cause of suffering in the first place.

The relief from suffering is to stop the changes you embarked upon which created the suffering in the first place.

The cause of suffering is ignorance, such as when you act upon something you think is true, but is not true. Usually, your intelligence is overridden by your desire.

Those interactions/fluctuations are what is creating the virtual mass of the atom, the foundation for the so-called 'material' world. So doesn't this show you that you live in a virtual world, rather than a material one? But the fluctuations themselves are illusory, just as the undulating 'snake' is an illusion, albeit on a higher level of Reality.

Exactly. The cause of suffering is an action resulting in unwanted change. The relief from suffering is another action...stopping or reversing the unwanted change which caused it. Someone who is suffering does not stop suffering until a change or action occurs to stop it or reverse it. Everything requires action/interaction.

As far as I see it, the fluctuations show that there are interactions going on even at the quantum level. It does not show me that those fluctuations are nonexistant. We absolutely live in a virtual world, but that doesn't mean the same as non-existence or nothingness. The world exists in a way far different from how we percieve it, but it exists.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You are still in the realm of duality by thinking 'this' and 'that' and are missing the realization of That.

It is still an individually sculpted, self-view. The only view that matters is that of Brahman, unsculpted, unmodified.

I only posted this dialogue to put 'thou art that' into the context in which it originally was written, and not to transmit any veracity or meaning of the text.

Oh, OK, if you think so. Universal Consciousness, IMHO, you cannot jettison the God idea. If not God, then UC. Happens with people from all religions. I understand that. I am not an individual, I am you too, I am the butterfly in Alps, I am the grain of sand on Verkala beach. I am 'what all exists or does not' (depending on what is the last word from science).

 

[Aupmanyav]

This led to the theory that matter is made up of energy. .. Science has not yet discovered what matter is made out of. .. So in other words we just don't know.

You are right, Yiostheoy. We have come to know about Higgs Boson, but we do not yet know how mass comes about. Science must find it out quick because what constitutes me is soon likely to change form.

I am at the perfect center of the universe. I am perfectly integrated in the universe. Nothing...not even our minds or our personal views can separate us from the universe. It is only in your mind that I am somehow lost. I assure you, the universe misses no mark and with that I am perfectly on mark.

You are not just the center but also the periphery and what exists between the two, Runewolf, you are the whole of it. There is nothing else.