If "everything is energy" then what does this mean?

[godnotgod]

Oh, OK, if you think so. Universal Consciousness, IMHO, you cannot jettison the God idea. If not God, then UC. Happens with people from all religions. I understand that. I am not an individual, I am you too, I am the butterfly in Alps, I am the grain of sand on Verkala beach. I am 'what all exists or does not' (depending on what is the last word from science).

I repeat:

"The Universe is [none other than] The Absolute, as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation"
Vivekenanda

The problem with both science and religion, is that they attempt to make Reality fit their conceptual frameworks, when it should be the other way around. Yeshua said it:

'You search the scriptures for eternal life, when it is I that the scriptures are about'

IOW, we have the cart ahead of the horse, when we should be going directly to the Reality first, without any preconceived notion in mind. Get the experience first directly from the Source, and then you will know how to interpret the science and the religion in terms of Reality, and not the other way around.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Show me how the material brain creates the non-material notion of 'I'.

Got it. The mysticism bug. Get a vacuum cleaner. There is a whole science to it and the work is progressing, Godnotgod, I am (and a few others here) are materialists. Have you seen this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_correlates_of_consciousness

Yeshua said it:

Now do not bring that in. Next, you will ask me to read Bible again and go through baptism. Yeshua and Mohammad created all the mayhem in the world.

 

[godnotgod]

Exactly. The cause of suffering is an action resulting in unwanted change. The relief from suffering is another action...stopping or reversing the unwanted change which caused it. Someone who is suffering does not stop suffering until a change or action occurs to stop it or reverse it. Everything requires action/interaction.

As far as I see it, the fluctuations show that there are interactions going on even at the quantum level. It does not show me that those fluctuations are nonexistant. We absolutely live in a virtual world, but that doesn't mean the same as non-existence or nothingness. The world exists in a way far different from how we percieve it, but it exists.

Again, it only 'exists' for you on the level of your conscious awareness, which is perception. Beyond the level of perception, it does not exist, in the same way that, on one level of consciousness, there is a snake, but on another level, there is only the rope. Is this clear to you?

The fluctuations for you are real because you can measure and test for them. But you do so on the level of perceptual reality, and not via Ultimate Reality. From the POV of Ultimate Reality, all is maya. Only The Changeless that is Brahman; Pure Consciousness, is real. All else are shadows....ALL.

 

[godnotgod]

Got it. The mysticism bug. Get a vacuum cleaner. There is a whole science to it and the work is progressing, Godnotgod, I am (and a few others here) are materialists. Have you seen this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_correlates_of_consciousness
Now do not bring that in. Next, you will ask me to read Bible again and go through baptism. Yeshua and Mohammad created all the mayhem in the world.

No. The mayhem was already in place. Yeshua saw it and opposed it. Rome squashed him and his group, and then cleverly overwrote his original teachings, via Paul, with those of Mithra and other doctrines from the mystery religions.

Your reference still operates under the assumption that the material brain creates non-material consciousness, which it then proceeds to try to explain with another theory. But what if consciousness is the default state, and actually creates the brain? We know from modern scientific studies of long-term meditators, that they have thicker cerebral cortexes than non-meditators. IOW, consciousness grows the brain.

"One alternative [to materialism] that is gaining increasing attention is the view that the capacity for experience is not itself a product of the brain. This is not to say that the brain is not responsible for what we experience — there is ample evidence for a strong correlation between what goes on in the brain and what goes on in the mind — only that the brain is not responsible for experience itself. Instead, the capacity for consciousness is an inherent quality of life itself.

In this model, consciousness is like the light in a film projector. The film needs the light in order for an image to appear, but it does not create the light. In a similar way, the brain creates the images, thoughts, feelings and other experiences of which we are aware, but awareness itself is already present.

All that we have discovered about the correlations between the brain and experience still holds true. This is usually the case with a paradigm shift; the new includes the old. But it also resolves the anomaly that the old could not explain. In this case, we no longer need scratch our heads wondering how the brain generates the capacity for experience.

This proposal is so contrary to the current paradigm, that die-hard materialists easily ridicule and dismiss it. But we should not forget the bishops of Galileo’s time who refused to look through his telescope because they knew his discovery was impossible."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/peter-russell/brain-consciousness_b_873595.html

 

[godnotgod]

I am (and a few others here) are materialists.

Once again: the mass of the atom is created via fluctuations in The Unified Field, resulting in VIRTUAL mass; ie; not REAL mass. Therefore, all 'material' reality is virtual in nature.

So where is the 'material' you claim to be a 'materialist' about? Can you show it to me?

Even if this were not so, the atom is something like 99.9999999% empty space, making you a 'spacist'. Are you, in fact, a minority spacist, Aupmanyav? It's OK to come out of the closet. There are others here to support you.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You are right, Yiostheoy. We have come to know about Higgs Boson, but we do not yet know how mass comes about. Science must find it out quick because what constitutes me is soon likely to change form.

I never denied that sciences' knowledge is deficient about mass. Nothing new there. You feel you have the answers?

No. The mayhem was already in place. Yeshua saw it and opposed it. Rome squashed him and his group, and then cleverly overwrote his original teachings, via Paul, with those of Mithra and other doctrines from the mystery religions.

He was a rabble-rouser like so many others in his time. He assured his desciples that his kingdom will come in their life-time. But that is another topic in which I would not be interested. It is no pleasure for me discussing likes of Yeshua and Mohammad; sons, messengers, manifestations of a monotheistic God.

.. then you may as well say: 'We are the Universe', ,,

Of course, we are, none other than the energy with which it all began.

 

[Aupmanyav]

OK, tell us about this unchanging 'Universal Consciousness' and how it gives the perception of the observed universe?

 

[godnotgod]

.Of course, we are, none other than the energy with which it all began.

OK, Aupmanyav, but let us not forget the consciousness part, which was present long before any brains came around.

 

[godnotgod]

OK, tell us about this unchanging 'Universal Consciousness' and how it gives the perception of the observed universe?

It is just another phrase for Brahman, which is manifesting itself as The Universe, a manifestation understood as maya.

It is That which is The Changeless, but which appears to be always changing:

In Hinduism, Brahman (/brəhmən/; ब्रह्मन्) connotes the highest Universal Principle, the Ultimate Reality in the universe. In major schools of Hindu philosophy it is the material, efficient, formal and final cause of all that exists. It is the pervasive, genderless, infinite, eternal truth and bliss which does not change, yet is the cause of all changes. Brahman as a metaphysical concept is the single binding unity behind the diversity in all that exists in the universe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman

 

[Runewolf1973]

Again, it only 'exists' for you on the level of your conscious awareness, which is perception. Beyond the level of perception, it does not exist, in the same way that, on one level of consciousness, there is a snake, but on another level, there is only the rope. Is this clear to you?

The fluctuations for you are real because you can measure and test for them. But you do so on the level of perceptual reality, and not via Ultimate Reality. From the POV of Ultimate Reality, all is maya. Only The Changeless that is Brahman; Pure Consciousness, is real. All else are shadows....ALL.

No doubt a possibility, but to claim it as ultimate reality or some absolute truth is something only a mystic can do. I am not a mystic. I prefer the scientific method of analysis and discovery. From a scientific standoint and based on everything quantum physics has shown us, I feel that my view is still accurate...interaction is everything. Yes our universe is virtual, but at the same time I see it as also very real and energetic. That's just the way I see things. Everyone sees a little differently though and that's okay too. Maybe it depends on one's own definition of "real". Matter is "real" enough for me, real enough to be recognized and utilized by this form I am in now. Perhaps that's all that matters. The universe made me this way, so that's how I'm going to be. I just go with the flow, nothing forced. The universe will eventually push us all towards it's own Ultimate Reality. I let the universe do the pushing.

 

[Jumi]

OK, Aupmanyav, but let us not forget the consciousness part, which was present long before any brains came around.

Forget? Where was our consciousness before we existed?

 

[godnotgod]

No doubt a possibility, but to claim it as ultimate reality or some absolute truth is something only a mystic can do. I am not a mystic. I prefer the scientific method of analysis and discovery. From a scientific standoint and based on everything quantum physics has shown us, I feel that my view is still accurate...interaction is everything. Yes our universe is virtual, but at the same time I see it as also very real and energetic. That's just the way I see things. Everyone sees a little differently though and that's okay too. Maybe it depends on one's own definition of "real". Matter is "real" enough for me, real enough to be recognized and utilized by this form I am in now. Perhaps that's all that matters. The universe made me this way, so that's how I'm going to be. I just go with the flow, nothing forced. The universe will eventually push us all towards it's own Ultimate Reality. I let the universe do the pushing.

If you think/feel you are one with the Universe, that is a mystical view. However, the mystical view includes science. So it is not a matter of preference one over the other.

When you are dreaming, are dream-thirst and hunger real to you? Do some wake up screaming because whatever frightens them is real? Is the visual field real to the dreamer?

No, The Universe will not push us toward Ultimate Reality; it already is, and has always been, That, right under our very noses. t's just that you continue to move around in perceptual reality, a conditioned state of consousness, which includes science. Matter is 'real' to you simply because you are using perception as your reference, a reference we know can be limited and faulty.

What 'made you this way' was not The Universe, but your social indoctrination. If you really awoke to the way The Universe 'made*' you, you would see things the way The Universe sees them, and not the way your conditioned consciousness sees them. You would see that....

"The Universe is The Absolute, as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation"

*were you 'made', or grown? Are you an artefact, or are you organic?

 

[godnotgod]

Forget? Where was our consciousness before we existed?

Where it's always been: right here, right now. What? We did not create consciousness; consciousness created us. The Big Bang was an event in Consciousness. But it is not 'my' consciousness; 'yours' and 'mine' are only illusions.

 

[Runewolf1973]

No, The Universe will not push us toward Ultimate Reality; it already is, and has always been.

The universe will do whatever the hell it wants.

 

[Runewolf1973]

If you think/feel you are one with the Universe, that is a mystical view. However, the mystical view includes science.

No it is simple logic that universe is everything and everything is the universe. It's not like I can just remove myself from the universe. This is not necessarily a mystical view. Until you can show solid evidence for your claims, then I would have to say that science does not support your views.

 

[Aupmanyav]

It is just another phrase for Brahman, which is manifesting itself as The Universe, a manifestation understood as maya. .. It is That which is The Changeless, but which appears to be always changing:

In major schools of Hindu philosophy it is the material, efficient, formal and final cause of all that exists. It is the pervasive, genderless, infinite, eternal truth and bliss which does not change, yet is the cause of all changes.

And where does Brahman arise from? Is it eternal or has a beginning and an end? Is Brahman (existence) another name/phase for 'absolute nothing' (non-existence)? What is the relationship between existence and non-existence? I have doubts if Brahman is changeless, because even at the level of energy and sub-atomic particles, I see (meaning science reports) unending change. I am a maverick, I do not go by what the schools of philosophy say. 3000 years ago RigVeda said:

"Sato bandhumasati niravindan hridi pratīshyākavayo manīshā ll"
(Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent.)
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10129.htm

 

[godnotgod]

The universe will do whatever the hell it wants.

'Ya know, you're right!

Ha...what a joke! Why, it can even forget it's the Ultimate Reality and play Hide and Seek with itself! It can be YOU, while pretending it's not the Ultimate Reality, pretending to be both material and a materialist, when, in reality, it doesn't exist at all! See what you can do when you are Pure Nothingness? Ha ha ha...

(It's been said that, if you come face to face with The Devil, don't be afraid. Compliment him on the quality of his illusion.)

 

[godnotgod]

No it is simple logic that universe is everything and everything is the universe. It's not like I can just remove myself from the universe. This is not necessarily a mystical view. Until you can show solid evidence for your claims, then I would have to say that science does not support your views.

You say that as if science is the Gold Standard.

'mystical' simply means 'union' with That. Since Everything is already That, it means realization of union. So if you already think/feel yourself to be one with the Universe, then that is a mystical view/experience.

 

[godnotgod]

And where does Brahman arise from? Is it eternal or has a beginning and an end? Is Brahman (existence) another name/phase for 'absolute nothing' (non-existence)? What is the relationship between existence and non-existence? I have doubts if Brahman is changeless, because even at the level of energy and sub-atomic particles, I see (meaning science reports) unending change. I am a maverick, I do not go by what the schools of philosophy say. 3000 years ago RigVeda said:

"Sato bandhumasati niravindan hridi pratīshyākavayo manīshā ll
(Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent.)
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10129.htm

Maybe you're just having a nice dream about existence and non-existence, and seeing change where none exists, imagining that Brahman arises or not-arises. Duality. Maya.

Since sub-atomic particles are virtual particles, what is there to exhibit unending change?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Since sub-atomic particles are virtual particles, what is there to exhibit unending change?

If all things are unreal, why, how, where your 'universal consciousness' exists? Then non-existence is 'the reality'. Do you agree with that?