If "everything is energy" then what does this mean?

[Aupmanyav]

The 'change' does not occur in the Source.

We do not know the source that well to claim things about it, at least I don't (Neti-neti).

Maybe so on the Garden Variety Illusion level. You are still operating on the level of Causation, I see.

Science knows causation only. 'Uncaused' is for theists and mystics.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Is it material in nature?

All such things are wave as well as particles (depending on how one is viewing them), wave-particle. Now is that material or non-material?

The first photograph of an atom, as wave as well as particle, simultaneously.

The brain is also where delusion occurs.

You are right and we have to guard against that.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yet the distinction is made between actual and virtual particles.

"In physics, a virtual particle is a transient fluctuation that exhibits many of the characteristics of an ordinary particle, but that exists for a limited time.

The term is somewhat loose and vaguely defined, in that it refers to the view that the world is made up of "real particles": it is not; rather, "real particles" are better understood to be excitations of the underlying quantum fields. Virtual particles are also excitations of the underlying fields, but are "temporary" in the sense that they appear in calculations of interactions, but never as asymptotic states or indices to the scattering matrix. As such the accuracy and use of virtual particles in calculations is firmly established, but their "reality" or existence is a question of philosophy rather than science." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle

Make it a practice to have an initial check with Wikipedia.

 

[Aupmanyav]

We have proven that it is non-local, and the experiment has now been repeated several times. .. Do you want me to post the video once again? .. How can you say that the world is real, when it is maya .. Brahman is everywhere, then too, nothing is interacting nor changing, because there is nothing to interact or change

Where Godnotgod? Or is it that repeating something twenty times, it becomes truth.
No, not a video (I have mentioned my hearing problem). Write in brief what the video says, if you be kind enough.
'Maya' is the faulty perception. At the back of all things there is Brahman. It is very real, like the rope that appears like a snake.
You are right. It is not an interaction, because there is nothing else to interact with Brahman. But it is the property of Brahman itself, like that of physical energy, creating and changing virtual particles unceasingly.
And do not quote Vivekananda and Hindu Web-site, Wikipedia descriptions of theist views, I do not go by that. If you think that a Hindu will be impressed by that, then you do not know Hinduism debates. We are very hard-headed people.

Feynman Diagrams

 

[Aupmanyav]

No! That is not what Thurman is saying. He is only saying, as the Buddha said, that the atom is not the final indivisible reality we thought it to be. Having said that, what we call 'something' is of a material nature. But because of this collapse, it is not material. It only behaves AS IF it is material. Therefore, it is virtual. Thurman did say that it 'disappears'. If it disappears, there is nothing there. Or do you still see something there?

What I wrote were your own words. See, it is in apostrophes. Material and non-material are interchangeable. The bomb proved it. It does disappear, but science has not yet accepted that all things arise from void, ex-nihilo, absolute nothing. And also that many universes exist. There are problems in that theory. I will revise my views suitably if science accepts that at any point of time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation#Common_objections

Then I see a quote from Jayaram. As I told you I am not impressed. Jayaram has his views and I have mine. In Hinduism, we have every right to go by our own views. Jayaram is neither the son of God, nor a prophet, nor also a messenger of God. Perhaps he is a theist/mystic and I am an atheist, that is why our views differ.

"All things -- from Brahma the creator down to a single blade of grass -- are. . .simply appearances and not real."

Sankara is my first Guru, Buddha being the other. Do not misinterpret what he says here. The appearances are not real, but what constitutes things is very much real. He called the perceived as Vyavaharika Satya (Pragmatic Reality), truth but not of the highest level - which is Paramarthika Satya (Absolute Rality). That is why he said in his signature sentence:
"Brahma Styam, Jaganmithya .." (Brahman is truth, appearances, jagat, what is perceived is not truth, is not what it is taken for).

 

[Runewolf1973]

Maybe so on the Garden Variety Illusion level. You are still operating on the level of Causation, I see.

There are no "varieties" of illusion. Either it is an illusion due to a stimuli (quantum fluctuations could be a stimuli) or these are all nonexistant hallucinations.

 

[Runewolf1973]

What are you talking about?

Why are you still operating at the level of causation? I operate at this level because for me it is real. To you it is apparently not real yet you persist with your interactions at this level. Shouldn't you just disappear into nonexistence already?

 

[atanu]

Where is Legion?

 

[Runewolf1973]

The Hindu idea is not/never that the material reality is 'maya', in no branch of Hindu philosophy. Some philosophies say that the way it is perceived is not true. That is 'maya' (Advaita, Mayavada, snake and rope). At the back of the wrongly perceived reality is what is actually real, Brahman. So in effect, all things are Brahman only - 'Sarvam Khalu Idam Brahma'. You need to revise your information on Hindu philosophies. Wikipedia explains them nicely. Nothing is actually being created because you are perceiving Brahman which exists everywhere in your own way giving rise to the feeling that things are created. The bedrock still is Brahman. All that happens in time and space. And that Brahman is incessantly changing. Material reality is not a dream, it is a fact, but at a lower level - Vyavaharika Satya. The absolute truth is Brahman only, the Parmarthika Satya. Consciousness arises in living beings because of how what constitutes it (Brahman) gets configured. When that configuration is destroyed, consciousness of a living being also is destroyed. Human consciousness is a very local thing.

Nice explanation. That is exactly how I see things. Funny thing is I have never actually studied Hindu, nor even Buddhism for that matter. I study nature only.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Where is Legion?

He probably has better things to do being a neurologist

 

[godnotgod]

All such things are wave as well as particles (depending on how one is viewing them), wave-particle. Now is that material or non-material?

View attachment 13426 The first photograph of an atom, as wave as well as particle, simultaneously.You are right and we have to guard against that.

Heh...who's guarding the Guard?

The question was about the Higgs boson, a virtual particle, and whether it is material or not.

 

[godnotgod]

"In physics, a virtual particle is a transient fluctuation that exhibits many of the characteristics of an ordinary particle, but that exists for a limited time.

The term is somewhat loose and vaguely defined, in that it refers to the view that the world is made up of "real particles": it is not; rather, "real particles" are better understood to be excitations of the underlying quantum fields. Virtual particles are also excitations of the underlying fields, but are "temporary" in the sense that they appear in calculations of interactions, but never as asymptotic states or indices to the scattering matrix. As such the accuracy and use of virtual particles in calculations is firmly established, but their "reality" or existence is a question of philosophy rather than science." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle

Make it a practice to have an initial check with Wikipedia.

Calculations have now shown that all of the mass of the atom is being created by fluctuations in the Higgs/Quantum Fields, rendering all 'material' reality to be virtual in nature. You said it yourself, above. IOW, virtual particles are not real, material particles. 'Material' reality is being re-created many times every second, but we do not see it occurring.

 

[godnotgod]

"All things -- from Brahma the creator down to a single blade of grass -- are. . .simply appearances and not real."

The appearances are not real, but what constitutes things is very much real.

Exactly what I am saying: the material world is an appearance and not real; only Brahman is real; the snake is not real; only the rope is real.

 

[Acim]

What I wrote were your own words. See, it is in apostrophes. Material and non-material are interchangeable. The bomb proved it. It does disappear, but science has not yet accepted that all things arise from void, ex-nihilo, absolute nothing. And also that many universes exist. There are problems in that theory. I will revise my views suitably if science accepts that at any point of time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation#Common_objections

Then I see a quote from Jayaram. As I told you I am not impressed. Jayaram has his views and I have mine. In Hinduism, we have every right to go by our own views. Jayaram is neither the son of God, nor a prophet, nor also a messenger of God. Perhaps he is a theist/mystic and I am an atheist, that is why our views differ.

"All things -- from Brahma the creator down to a single blade of grass -- are. . .simply appearances and not real."

Sankara is my first Guru, Buddha being the other. Do not misinterpret what he says here. The appearances are not real, but what constitutes things is very much real. He called the perceived as Vyavaharika Satya (Pragmatic Reality), truth but not of the highest level - which is Paramarthika Satya (Absolute Rality). That is why he said in his signature sentence:
"Brahma Styam, Jaganmithya .." (Brahman is truth, appearances, jagat, what is perceived is not truth, is not what it is taken for).

I would have participated in the discussion but the posts are too long for my liking.
I cannot concentrate for that long period.

 

[godnotgod]

Where Godnotgod? Or is it that repeating something twenty times, it becomes truth.
No, not a video (I have mentioned my hearing problem). Write in brief what the video says, if you be kind enough.
'Maya' is the faulty perception. At the back of all things there is Brahman. It is very real, like the rope that appears like a snake.
You are right. It is not an interaction, because there is nothing else to interact with Brahman. But it is the property of Brahman itself, like that of physical energy, creating and changing virtual particles unceasingly.
And do not quote Vivekananda and Hindu Web-site, Wikipedia descriptions of theist views, I do not go by that. If you think that a Hindu will be impressed by that, then you do not know Hinduism debates. We are very hard-headed people.

Yes, I can see that, and perhaps so did the Buddha.

It only APPEARS that Brahman is 'creating and changing'. That is maya.

Will post proof of non-locality later. Have to dig it up.

 

[godnotgod]

Where is Legion?

Now everyone is looking for salvation.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Nice explanation. That is exactly how I see things. Funny thing is I have never actually studied Hindu, nor even Buddhism for that matter. I study nature only.

Hindus too are pagans. Their views also developed from nature.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I would have participated in the discussion but the posts are too long for my liking.
I cannot concentrate for that long period.

Same problem here. Also, how many posts a person can reply in a day? Godnotgod's posts are tiring me, but I am hooked. I am sure it is tiring for him too.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Exactly what I am saying: the material world is an appearance and not real; only Brahman is real; the snake is not real; only the rope is real.

What constitutes Brahman?

 

[godnotgod]

Hindus too are pagans. Their views also developed from nature.

There is only one Reality. The mystical experience is the most direct contact with that Reality. After a time, many views develop, such as with Hinduism, and many corruptions. That is why many orthodox practitioners return to the mystical view. Yoga is the mystical branch of Hinduism; Zen that of Buddhism; Kabbalah that of Judaism; the Contemplatives that of Christianity; Sufism that of Islam, etc.