If "everything is energy" then what does this mean?

[godnotgod]

A non-dual consciousness sees every thing the viewer as well as the view, but is not fooled by it. It knows both - the Pragmatic (Vyavaharika) as well as the Absolute (Parmarthika). If both are not seen, then it is not realization.

This makes no sense. A non-dual consciousness would not see a snake. To see a snake is to be fooled.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Who are the ignorant, if not Brahman, pretending to ignorance?

It is Brahman alright, but it is structured in a particular way (as a human mind) . That causes us to fall under 'maya'. It is not pretension, it is how our minds act, property of that particular structure.

This makes no sense. A non-dual consciousness would not see a snake. To see a snake is to be fooled.

You are not a realized person, so you will not know what a realized person will see. A realized person knows the mind of an unrealized person and can understand why that person is seeing a snake when it is a rope only. A realized person is cognizant of every thing.

 

[godnotgod]

Now, now, Godnotgod. Use better language. No, it is not idiotic. When we see a snake, we just do not faint or fall dead, we look more closely, prod it with a stick, to see if it is really a snake or it is just a rope. We do not kill our uncles.

Many have been killed on hunting trips where their hunting partners thought they were a bear.

If the snake really were a snake, prodding it may get you bitten.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Many have been killed on hunting trips where their hunting partners thought they were a bear. If the snake really were a snake, prodding it may get you bitten.

Yeah, that depends on chance and probability. I do not completely deny it though I am not aware of many such cases. Yeah, we may not prod it, but we always check a second time. Perhaps shine a torch on it. If there is no way to confirm it, then we do not risk anything anymore.

ps - Why we want to check it also has a reason. We do not want it to slither away some place and bite us later. Normal human behavior.

 

[godnotgod]

It is Brahman alright, but it is structured in a particular way (as a human mind) . That causes us to fall under 'maya'. It is not pretension, it is how our minds act, property opf that particular structure.You are not a realized person, so you will not know what a realized person will see. A realized person knows the mind of an unrealized person and can understand why that person is seeing a snake when it is a rope only. A realized person is cognizant of every thing.

But if Brahman cannot itself be fooled, then Brahman, acting as the ignorant, must be pretension.

The ignorant are all complete frauds! There is not a one who is not realized.

You have answered my question. No, a realized person (unconditioned consciousness) will not see the rope as a snake, and will not see a changing, material universe as the true Reality; he will see Brahman as the only true Reality.

 

[Aupmanyav]

But if Brahman cannot itself be fooled, then Brahman, acting as the ignorant, must be pretension. .. The ignorant are all complete frauds! There is not a one who is not realized. .. You have answered my question. No, a realized person (unconditioned consciousness) will not see the rope as a snake, and will not see a changing, material universe as the true Reality; he will see Brahman as the only true Reality.

Brahman is in a particular structure that is liable to be fooled. Brahman is not a human that it can be fooled or be ignorant. .. I do not get the meaning of your second sentence. .. That is not what I said. I said (quote) A realized person knows the mind of an unrealized person and can understand why that person is seeing a snake when it is a rope only. A realized person is cognizant of every thing (unquote). That is, he/she will understand the absolute as well as the perceived.

 

[godnotgod]

Brahman is in a particular structure that is liable to be fooled. Brahman is not a human that it can be fooled or be ignorant. ..

So can Brahman be fooled or not? You seem to be saying yes and no here.

Now, since maya is none other than Brahman, this suggests that Brahman deliberately allows itself to be fooled, while also deliberately forgetting it is Brahman, the reason being to indulge fully in its own maya.

I do not get the meaning of your second sentence. .. That is not what I said. I said (quote) A realized person knows the mind of an unrealized person and can understand why that person is seeing a snake when it is a rope only. A realized person is cognizant of every thing (unquote). That is, he/she will understand the absolute as well as the perceived.

And because he does, will not see the rope as a snake; will not see maya as reality.

 

[godnotgod]

You are not a realized person, so you will not know what a realized person will see.

Does a realized person see things as they actually are?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Many things will not, cannot be seen, but a realized person will understand them. Don't expect the realized to do what is physically impossible. Even after realization, the person will be human. He has to fetch water and sweep the floor.

 

[idav]

Does a realized person see things as they actually are?

Seeing isn't the issue, knowledge is. When there is an object there are 5 ways we can gain knowledge about it which can be 100 different things for just a single thing. Instruments allow us to see that they are really vibrating at a certain frequency causing certain color to hit us. Other instruments can help us see the heat of an object, invisible chemicals, sound waves, cells etc., and we know all these things through forms of observation, none of which is wrong. The more knowledge we can gain the better our understanding. How much knowledge makes a person realized? The only criteria is knowing what we see is not as it appears, science pretty much confirmed that for everyone that we can see it with our own eyes. We know most everything is mostly empty space, we know, our bodies are something like 99% empty space but there are forces involved.

 

[idav]

Don't expect the realized to do what is physically impossible. Even after realization, the person will be human. He has to fetch water and sweep the floor.

Unless your this guy. No longer has to eat or drink anything (kids don't try this at home).
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ars-Why-eminent-doctors-taking-seriously.html

 

[Rick O'Shez]

We know most everything is mostly empty space, we know, our bodies are something like 99% empty space but there are forces involved.

We also know that if we drop a brick on our foot it is likely to hurt.

We can make scientific observations of the quantum world, but that is not what we actually EXPERIENCE. What we experience is the solid world of Newtonian mechanics. Bringing QM into this kind of discussion is a red herring, it's an example of pseudoscience.

 

[godnotgod]

Many things will not, cannot be seen, but a realized person will understand them. Don't expect the realized to do what is physically impossible. Even after realization, the person will be human. He has to fetch water and sweep the floor.

That was not the question. I asked if a realized person will see things as they are, in contrast to the unrealized, who do not, as they have not 'realized' the true nature of reality. This, of course, implies that the world is appearances and shadows.

 

[godnotgod]

Seeing isn't the issue, knowledge is. When there is an object there are 5 ways we can gain knowledge about it which can be 100 different things for just a single thing. Instruments allow us to see that they are really vibrating at a certain frequency causing certain color to hit us. Other instruments can help us see the heat of an object, invisible chemicals, sound waves, cells etc., and we know all these things through forms of observation, none of which is wrong. The more knowledge we can gain the better our understanding. How much knowledge makes a person realized? The only criteria is knowing what we see is not as it appears, science pretty much confirmed that for everyone that we can see it with our own eyes. We know most everything is mostly empty space, we know, our bodies are something like 99% empty space but there are forces involved.

No, idav. The possession of factual knowledge does not lead to realization; it leads to the accumulation of more knowledge. Realization occurs with the shedding of knowlege, and is an event in seeing, and not of thought. I think you are referring to the kind of realization that occurs when someone sees the solution to a problem. That is not what is meant by realization, here, the other words for it being 'Enlightenment', and 'Awakening'.

All the knowledge in the world will not prevent you from seeing the rope as a snake, or this material world as 'real'. Only realization will, which involves a complete transformation of consciousness.

My question about seeing things as they are has to do with the nature of things, rather than the facts about them, which is what you are referring to. In both cases, our perception differs. Evolution adjusts our perception for the way we navigate within our environment. A bat or an insect navigate differently, so have different perceptual apparatus and methods.

 

[godnotgod]

We also know that if we drop a brick on our foot it is likely to hurt.

We can make scientific observations of the quantum world, but that is not what we actually EXPERIENCE. What we experience is the solid world of Newtonian mechanics. Bringing QM into this kind of discussion is a red herring, it's an example of pseudoscience.

We have already had this discussion, Spiney. The Quantum world is the basis of the gross world you call Newtonian. It is not another reality; they are one and the same, just at different levels. We live in the Quantum reality which says that the Newtonian material world is not a material world, but a possibility.

From the POV of perceptual reality, there is pain; but from the POV of Ultimate Reality (ie 'awakened consciousness') it is a dream. You experience dream-thirst, dream-hunger, dream-pain, in dream-sleep. So, too on the next higher level of conscious awareness. But on the next level after that, this world of perceptual 'reality' is an illusion.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Unless your this guy. No longer has to eat or drink anything (kids don't try this at home).

Oh, but he is a Martian.

That was not the question. I asked if a realized person will see things as they are, in contrast to the unrealized, who do not, as they have not 'realized' the true nature of reality. This, of course, implies that the world is appearances and shadows.

Enlightened about what? Awakened to what? No, a realized person does not 'see' what exists. He will see a rope as a rope, but he will understand it differently. Perhaps it is, we will know it in future. As of now, the idea is not established without doubts - 5 sigma.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

From the POV of perceptual reality, there is pain; but from the POV of Ultimate Reality (ie 'awakened consciousness') it is a dream. You experience dream-thirst, dream-hunger, dream-pain, in dream-sleep. So, too on the next higher level of conscious awareness. But on the next level after that, this world of perceptual 'reality' is an illusion.[/COLOR]

I give up. You're just regurgitating the same old muddle of views, and you are so attached to your opinions that you can't see the wood for the trees, let alone the moon. You're still stuck down your strange new-age rabbit hole, and it's like you expect others to join you down there. No thanks.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

He will see a rope as a rope, but he will understand it differently.

Exactly so.

 

[godnotgod]

Oh, but he is a Martian. Enlightened about what? Awakened to what? No, a realized person does not 'see' what exists. He will see a rope as a rope, but he will understand it differently. Perhaps it is, we will know it in future. As of now, the idea is not established without doubts - 5 sigma.

Apparently you have not yet experienced Realization. There is no realization, enlightenment, or awakening to any object. There is only Enlightenment itself, which itself is Reality.

A realized person will see a rope as a rope, rather than as a snake. Yes, of course he will understand it differently, simply because he now sees into the nature of things as they are, whereas an unrealized person will see them as something else. He will see The Unchanging Absolute as the material Universe, made up of parts, and changing all the time.

A realized person is certain that he sees things as they are, but he must first pass over the Ocean of Great Doubt.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Visit a Zen monastery in your neighborhood.

You're not a Zennist. You're a preachy new-ager who muddles up bits from here, there and everywhere.