If God allows something then he approves of it, right?

[Faint]

From the "spontaneous abortion" thread:

Let's say God exists as many believe he does. Some of the more common abrahamic views will tell you...

1) God is all-powerful and all-knowing.
2) God created the universe, or at least set things in motion to EVOLVE into a universe of his design.

If you accept these two things, then you must also accept that the only things that exist are things that God wanted and WANTS to exist. Things like evil, rape, suffering, murder, natural disasters, disease, David Blaine, extinctions, etc. If God didn't want them he could eliminate them all before they ever came into being. Ultimate power is also the ultimate eraser after all.

Okay, so some would say original sin is to blame, and all these BAD things are punishment for Adam and Eve's tresspass. But this would only support the premise that God wants evil to exist in the world. By allowing something to exist when he has the power to make it not exist, God is thus approving of it's existence.

Do you agree?

 

[mostly harmless]

I don't agree.

Things are what they are. I believe God to be above approving or disapproving things....

I believe God will not interfere with most things because that would affect our chance to grow in some way. I believe all things happen so we can learn and grow from the events in our lives, be they good or bad.

 

[Quiddity]

A resounding big fat NO...

If you start from the begining (recorded begining for those of you who may look too much into this) God allowed Adam and Eve to eat from the tree. But it was not His Will that they do so.

A God who respects free will.....who of thunk...:angel2: .

 

[Circle_One]

From the "spontaneous abortion" thread:

Let's say God exists as many believe he does. Some of the more common abrahamic views will tell you...

1) God is all-powerful and all-knowing.
2) God created the universe, or at least set things in motion to EVOLVE into a universe of his design.

If you accept these two things, then you must also accept that the only things that exist are things that God wanted and WANTS to exist. Things like evil, rape, suffering, murder, natural disasters, disease, David Blaine, extinctions, etc. If God didn't want them he could eliminate them all before they ever came into being. Ultimate power is also the ultimate eraser after all.

Okay, so some would say original sin is to blame, and all these BAD things are punishment for Adam and Eve's tresspass. But this would only support the premise that God wants evil to exist in the world. By allowing something to exist when he has the power to make it not exist, God is thus approving of it's existence.

Do you agree?

I actually do agree and have posed this same question many times.

With the Adam and Eve argument, granted it was their free will that made them eat the fruit, and not God's will, however it was God's will that all humans to come from that point to eternity will also be punished due to two people excersizing their free will.

If God did not approve of suffering, then the rest of the human world would not have been punished for the actions of two people who lived long, long, before us. He would have solely punished them, n'est pas?

 

[Ulver]

This is all going to break down to an agruement on free-will. Some will say they believe in it, while others will say they don't.

I'm in the 2nd camp because observing the world for as long as I have has seemed to suggest a lack of free-will more then a support of it.

 

[Booko]

I allow my children to make mistakes, but it does not follow that I approve of their mistakes.

I just recognize that if I allow them to screw up, they'll learn not to do it again, and the lesson will stick better.

 

[Faint]

I allow my children to make mistakes, but it does not follow that I approve of them.

I just recognize that if I allow them to screw up, they'll learn not to do it again, and the lesson will stick better.

Granted. I'm not saying you approve of their misbehavior (unless you built them and more or less programmed them). But you do approve of them being punished, yes? Just as you likely approve of your methods for punishing them?

 

[Booko]

Granted. I'm not saying you approve of their misbehavior (unless you built them and more or less programmed them). But you do approve of them being punished, yes? Just as you likely approve of your methods for punishing them?

I get to choose whatever corrective method I think is best. Sometimes it's negative reinforcement, and sometimes positive reinforcement will do.

And when it's negative reinforcement (i.e. punishment) I wouldn't say I particuarly "approve" of it. If there were some other way to get them to learn, I'd happily take it.

 

[Faint]

I don't agree.

Things are what they are. I believe God to be above approving or disapproving things....

I believe God will not interfere with most things because that would affect our chance to grow in some way. I believe all things happen so we can learn and grow from the events in our lives, be they good or bad.

So then God is apathetic? If he wants us to "grow in some way" then he must approve of the method that allows us to do so, right? Non-interference implies that God either doesn't care when bad things happen, or he wants them to happen. In either case, as he has the power and foresight to stop these bad things, we can safely say that he approves of them because he does not stop them. Why he doesn't stop them, or erase them is not part of the debate.

Suffering, pain, torment etc. all exist. An all powerful being could make them not exist. He doesn't. His inaction is in essence an action of allowance.

 

[Faint]

I get to choose whatever corrective method I think is best. Sometimes it's negative reinforcement, and sometimes positive reinforcement will do.

And when it's negative reinforcement (i.e. punishment) I wouldn't say I particuarly "approve" of it. If there were some other way to get them to learn, I'd happily take it.

Of course you approve of it. If you take that action, then you think it's somehow necessary. Maybe you don't like doing it. But you probably think something along the lines of "this needs to be done". Yes? And if you think it needs to be done, and you do it (or allow someone else to do it for you), well then you have condoned the punishment. Stamped it with your seal of approval. Signed on the dotted line. Clicked "I accept these terms and conditions". And so on...

Otherwise, you WOULD take a different action.

 

[Faint]

A resounding big fat NO....

This is pretty much summed up by the parent-punishing-child arguement. If you don't mind Victor, please explain how anything in existence is not a result of God's alleged design. Is there an outside agency at work...one beyond the powers of God?

BTW, the best arguement I can think of to say that God doesn't approve of bad things is that he is not all-powerful/all-knowing and that he did not design the universe.

 

[adilrockstar]

From the "spontaneous abortion" thread:

Let's say God exists as many believe he does. Some of the more common abrahamic views will tell you...

1) God is all-powerful and all-knowing.
2) God created the universe, or at least set things in motion to EVOLVE into a universe of his design.

If you accept these two things, then you must also accept that the only things that exist are things that God wanted and WANTS to exist. Things like evil, rape, suffering, murder, natural disasters, disease, David Blaine, extinctions, etc. If God didn't want them he could eliminate them all before they ever came into being. Ultimate power is also the ultimate eraser after all.

Okay, so some would say original sin is to blame, and all these BAD things are punishment for Adam and Eve's tresspass. But this would only support the premise that God wants evil to exist in the world. By allowing something to exist when he has the power to make it not exist, God is thus approving of it's existence.

Do you agree?

God promises judgment to all who do evil. He promises to end all evil. The time of Satan is short. He will be crushed and brought down out of power. The evil that exist in the world will be stopped.

So yes, God is allowing these things to happen, but only for a short time.

Those who follow after the Lord and seek to please Him, even through all of the temptations and suffering of this world, will gain eternal life. ETERNAL LIFE! The time on earth is short and temporary. The time with God:bow: is never ending.:angel2:

 

[Popeyesays]

"If you accept these two things, then you must also accept that the only things that exist are things that God wanted and WANTS to exist. Things like evil, rape, suffering, murder, natural disasters, disease, David Blaine, extinctions, etc. If God didn't want them he could eliminate them all before they ever came into being. Ultimate power is also the ultimate eraser after all."

I think ethically, morally, theologically speaking that is the silliest notion I have ever heard.

Regards,
Scott

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

From the "spontaneous abortion" thread:

Let's say God exists as many believe he does. Some of the more common abrahamic views will tell you...

1) God is all-powerful and all-knowing.
2) God created the universe, or at least set things in motion to EVOLVE into a universe of his design.

If you accept these two things, then you must also accept that the only things that exist are things that God wanted and WANTS to exist. Things like evil, rape, suffering, murder, natural disasters, disease, David Blaine, extinctions, etc. If God didn't want them he could eliminate them all before they ever came into being. Ultimate power is also the ultimate eraser after all.

Okay, so some would say original sin is to blame, and all these BAD things are punishment for Adam and Eve's tresspass. But this would only support the premise that God wants evil to exist in the world. By allowing something to exist when he has the power to make it not exist, God is thus approving of it's existence.

Do you agree?

Parents often allow their children to do things that are not the best for them, and may even hurt them, in order for their children to learn a lesson. The fact that a parent allows a child to make a bad choice does not mean the parent approves or is obligated to step in and make it stop. The same principle applies to God and mankind.

 

[yippityyak]

God promises judgment to all who do evil. He promises to end all evil. The time of Satan is short. He will be crushed and brought down out of power. The evil that exist in the world will be stopped.

So yes, God is allowing these things to happen, but only for a short time.

Those who follow after the Lord and seek to please Him, even through all of the temptations and suffering of this world, will gain eternal life. ETERNAL LIFE! The time on earth is short and temporary. The time with God:bow: is never ending.:angel2:

So God has either allowed, or was beaten by, Satan? Wow! Thats a new spin on religion!

Why on earth did God allow Satan to rule on this earth? And surely that is not because of the free will choices of us mere humans? We could not possibly have anything to do with that, as God says in the Bible that there can be no communication from the dead, am i not right? What passage is it now.......something to do with a man in Hell who pleads with God to be let into Heaven or go back to earth, and God says there can be no communication between the two. In the Old Testament, its there! So if we can not have anything to do with Hell until we get there, how can we have anything to do with Satans rule on earth?

And then there is a second question: If God is all powerful and all the wonderful things he is supposed to be able to do, then how the hell can he have been beaten by Satan? And when Jesus was crucified, he apparently went down into the depths of hell and was resurrected after he had found and brought back the keys to hell, am I not right? So was Jesus letting Satan out, or locking him away? It doesnt make sense.

So if we look at things like corporate prayers for all the sick and dying out there, why dont they work? If you were to get 500 people together in a stadium and ask them to pray for all bone cancer victims in the world to be cured, why is it not effective? It is not effective because God doesnt want these people to get better, not even one or two people. Or it is not effective because he has no real power. Which one is it?

 

[mostly harmless]

Parents often allow their children to do things that are not the best for them, and may even hurt them, in order for their children to learn a lesson. The fact that a parent allows a child to make a bad choice does not mean the parent approves or is obligated to step in and make it stop. The same principle applies to God and mankind.

Thank you!:clap

 

[Hema]

From the "spontaneous abortion" thread:

Let's say God exists as many believe he does. Some of the more common abrahamic views will tell you...

1) God is all-powerful and all-knowing.
2) God created the universe, or at least set things in motion to EVOLVE into a universe of his design.

If you accept these two things, then you must also accept that the only things that exist are things that God wanted and WANTS to exist. Things like evil, rape, suffering, murder, natural disasters, disease, David Blaine, extinctions, etc. If God didn't want them he could eliminate them all before they ever came into being. Ultimate power is also the ultimate eraser after all.

Okay, so some would say original sin is to blame, and all these BAD things are punishment for Adam and Eve's tresspass. But this would only support the premise that God wants evil to exist in the world. By allowing something to exist when he has the power to make it not exist, God is thus approving of it's existence.

Do you agree?

No I don't agree. My religion states that there is suffering because of negative karma which was comitted in the past. We can choose to be good but if we don't we have to pay the consequences. For every action there is a reaction. Karma does not mean we are predestined to suffer. By doing good now, we can offset past bad karma and generate good karma for the future. I believe in reincarnation and karma because if God is forgiving, he will not send us to an eternity of suffering. He gives us numerous chances to offset our bad karma.

 

[roli]

[

quote=Faint]From the "spontaneous abortion" thread:

Let's say God exists as many believe he does. Some of the more common abrahamic views will tell you...

1) God is all-powerful and all-knowing.
2) God created the universe, or at least set things in motion to EVOLVE into a universe of his design.

If you accept these two things, then you must also accept that the only things that exist are things that God wanted and WANTS to exist. Things like evil, rape, suffering, murder, natural disasters, disease, David Blaine, extinctions, etc. If God didn't want them he could eliminate them all before they ever came into being. Ultimate power is also the ultimate eraser after all.

Okay, so some would say original sin is to blame, and all these BAD things are punishment for Adam and Eve's tresspass. But this would only support the premise that God wants evil to exist in the world. By allowing something to exist when he has the power to make it not exist, God is thus approving of it's existence.

Do you agree?

[/QUOTE]

Where is the mention of the free will God has granted to mankind,the power and right to choose.
If I controlled my wife and told here when and how to do things,what to say and how to live that would be dictatorship.I would not be married to long
There is no free will for her to choose what she should do according to her personality and personal convictions,I end up forcing her and controlling her.
Love for my wife is allowing her to make choices based on her own fredom to choose.
If I had children I must instruct ,teach, discipline and allow them to make the choices based on the instruction I give them as a parent.
If I forced them to do and be what I wanted them to be they would be rebellious,angry children,I must instruct and discipline them but I can't force them to do anything ,they must learn to obey and submit to instruction or face the consequences.
God has given man free will,man inturn has disobeyed,rebelled,perverted,and become self reliant and indulgent in their behaviors and attitudes and therefore suffered the consequences.

Greed,pride,sexual immorality,lying,stealing,murder,hate,is not God's fault but the result of the choices man has madefrom their selfish indulgent lifestyles
When the world becomes chaotic and ruthless,death,sickness,tradgedy,pain and suffering is the outcome ,but God has made a way where man can change if they turn to God, but the real question is will they.

 

[Willamena]

By allowing something to exist when he has the power to make it not exist, God is thus approving of it's existence.

That's not even true for humans; why should it be true for god?

We tolerate things, why shouldn't god?

 

[michel]

I allow my children to make mistakes, but it does not follow that I approve of their mistakes.

I just recognize that if I allow them to screw up, they'll learn not to do it again, and the lesson will stick better.

A few posters have tended to your way of looking at things, but I think your 'view of it' is a great analogy.