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If God existed would there be proof?

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
That is assuming that we are all telling the truth, and have nothing hidden in our subconscious, which even we might not be aware of on the surface.

Well, even if that's so, no just god could blame people for having things in our subconscious that we don't know about. It would still be god's fault that we don't believe. After all he's supposed to be the omnipotent and omniscient one, the rest of us are just humans (the way god made us, if it exists). It would know what evidence would be enough for each of us.

Personally I can't see the first hint of the merest suggestion of one iota of evidence that a god exists...
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Don't confuse the two issues. My remark about the infinite being an imaginary quality is a remark about the essentially imaginary quality of the otherwise descriptionless God..
G-d is not entirely descriptionless.
What you really mean is that G-d is not a physical being.
 
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muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
No, it assumes you are not telling the truth when you say he provides sufficient evidence..
Tut. :rolleyes:
Do you know anybody who is totally honest, even with themselves?
..because I don't.
Making it about us v them is rather petty, I would have thought.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
You said it was an axiom.

Yes. Its an axiom. A principle.

I don't actually accept that (because it leads to an infinite regress of explanation) but, as I said, I'll accept it for now to see why you think it leads to your claims being true.

You have misunderstood it. PSR does not get into an infinite regress fallacy. But that when it comes to a completely different argument. Irrelevant to this simple one.

That isn't logic, it's just another claim,

When you if God exists, show me the evidence, is that "just another claim"?

Okay then, your expiation that an assumption is (always) based on experience, is obviously false (look the word up in a dictionary). You gave no reason at all for accepting the principle of sufficient reason, which still makes it an assumption.

I am not talking about dictionary definitions. If you wish, take a simple qualitative or quantitative research. Based on the data and final analysis, you make assumptions. That is not a dictionary definition.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
There could be proof if God wanted us to have proof since God is omnipotent, so we can deduce that there is a reason God does not provide proof. From reading the Bible the answer is obvious. God does not provide proof because God wants our faith, and with proof, faith would no longer be necessary.
...

I think faith means loyalty in the Bible. Person is loyal/faithful to God when he keeps what God said. Most people would probably not be faithful to God, if they don’t think they have enough reason to believe.
 

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
I think faith means loyalty in the Bible. Person is loyal/faithful to God when he keeps what God said. Most people would probably not be faithful to God, if they don’t think they have enough reason to believe.
The Christian bible teaches that “faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see” (Hebrews 11:1). So the definition of faith in the Christian bible is the same as the dictionary definition in that it concerns realities we believe are true but we cannot verify through our senses.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
You have misunderstood it.

Your usual "you don't understand" ad hominem, when you have no answer.
PSR does not get into an infinite regress fallacy.

If everything has to have a sufficient reason, then there can be no end to the chain of reasons.
But that when it comes to a completely different argument. Irrelevant to this simple one.

Well if you ever get around to you providing an argument for your two original claims, we can concentrate on it. At the moment all you seem to be doing is picking up on what you then say are irrelevant details.
When you if God exists, show me the evidence, is that "just another claim"?

I think there's at least one word missing from that. If you meant when I say god doesn't exist, then that's not a claim I'm making.

How about you finally make some sort of an attempt to justify your two original claims? Just to remind you, you said:

IF God exists, there would definitely be proof. There is no question about it.
If God does not exist, there has to be proof that God does not exist. There is no question about it.

So please...
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Your usual "you don't understand" ad hominem, when you have no answer.

Thanks. Very good. And I dont know who you are to say "your usual". Strange.

If everything has to have a sufficient reason, then there can be no end to the chain of reasons.

Depends on the argument, and its irrelevant to this.

I think there's at least one word missing from that. If you meant when I say god doesn't exist, then that's not a claim I'm making.

Nah. You misrepresented it.

What you are actually trying to prove is that any theist has all the right to claim God exists, with no proof, and you should be perpetually okay with it. Great.

Cheers.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
If so, then also evolution theory is the same fallacy.

:facepalm: No, it doesn't. In what way do you think a falsifiable scientific theory, based on copious amounts of evidence can be an affirming the consequent fallacy?

It is not framed as a logical argument in the first place. If a theory makes a number of predictions about observations that have yet to be made, and is falsifiable if those predictions fail, then it is a totally different position to your claim which makes no predictions about anything and is totally unfalsifiable.

If god created the world then we'd see that the world exists, is worthless because we already know that the world exists, and that other explanations are available. Another way to look at it is as begging the question because you've just assumed your conclusion that there is a god in your initial premiss.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
What you are actually trying to prove...

I'm not trying to prove anything at all. I'm trying to get you to back up your seemingly baseless claims:

IF God exists, there would definitely be proof. There is no question about it.
If God does not exist, there has to be proof that God does not exist. There is no question about it.

How many more times do I need to say that before you have the intellectual courage to at least try? I will ignore further distractions from you. Either attempt to back them up or I'll just assume you can't and we're done.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Why did G-d make other creatures that appear to be so cruel, for example?I suppose it is something to do with ecology and balance of populations.
..and G-d knows best.

However, the evil of mankind is far greater. Ask David Attenborough.

That doesn't make sense if a deity is omnipotent and omniscient, since it need not be limited in any way as to what it creates.



Evil is a subjective perception, but since humans are evolved apes, and would have very limited choices in comparison to the concept of a deity with limitless intelligence and power, then it makes no rational sense to suggest humans are more culpable for their actions than that deity.

Any suggestions? Perhaps you think that creatures shouldn't die? Would that work?

Perhaps for once you could address what was actually said, in the context of your claim it was responding to, and leave the irrelevant straw men fallacies alone? It's simple enough, you tried to excuse suffering, or what you called the "creation of evil creatures", by claiming it must be to do with ecology and balance of populations. Firstly predatory species are not evil, that is a very stupidly facile idea on it's own. Secondly if a deity had limitless power and knowledge, then it need not be bound by any ecological or biological concerns. We needn't trouble ourselves about alternatives, as that has no relevance to the point. A point you clearly failed to understand, though it was hardly a very complex idea, and so ignored it and offered an irrelevant straw man. Suffering is ubiquitous in the world, it predates human evolution by hundreds of millions of years, thus if a deity with literally limitless choice created that world, ipso facto that deity would be culpable for that suffering.


Ah yes .. it must be G-d's fault if we sin, because He created us.
..how childish :(

Oh dear, the sheer boundless irony of your churlish response, while calling me childish, at least raised a wry smile. Since again a very simple point has escaped you, I will try an analogy.

If you took the time to selectively breed dogs, looking to breed the largest strongest and most aggressive dogs, the end result would be pretty predictable, now you let that dog loose, in a children's playground, and again the results are pretty predictable. Now it would be asinine to assert that the dog would be more culpable for the result, than the person who bred it and let it loose, wouldn't you agree? As the dog has considerably less choice in the outcome than the dog breeder.

So how much more absurd it is to claim, that a deity with literally limitless power and knowledge is not at all culpable for any of the results of what it created?

Now see if you can muster something approaching a critical examination of that idea, and form a cogent and mature response.
 
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ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
If its baseless, you are claiming God if existing does not leave any proof.

I'm indeed saying that it's a perfectly logical possibility that a god might exist and there be no proof, yes. However, that means there would be no reason for me to take it any more seriously that anything else with no supporting evidence or proof. It's perfectly logically possible that the universe was sneezed out of the nose of the Great Green Arkleseizure, or that it was manufactured by pan-dimensional elves, all called Eric, and there would be no more (or less) reason to take those possibilities seriously either.
So you cannot ever ask for proof ever again.

Total non sequitur. If somebody is going to make the positive assertion that a god exists, then I can ask why I should take their claim seriously. If they have no evidence or proof, that doesn't mean they must logically be wrong, just that they can't make the case that they are right.

You do get that saying that saying nobody has given me a reason to accept X, or only flawed arguments for X, is not the same as saying X is definitely false?

That's essentially why there are agnostic atheists.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I'm indeed saying that it's a perfectly logical possibility that a god might exist and there be no proof, yes. However, that means there would be no reason for me to take it any more seriously that anything else with no supporting evidence or proof. It's perfectly logically possible that the universe was sneezed out of the nose of the Great Green Arkleseizure, or that it was manufactured by pan-dimensional elves, all called Eric, and there would be no more (or less) reason to take those possibilities seriously either.


Total non sequitur. If somebody is going to make the positive assertion that a god exists, then I can ask why I should take their claim seriously. If they have no evidence or proof, that doesn't mean they must logically be wrong, just that they can't make the case that they are right.

You do get that saying that saying nobody has given me a reason to accept X, or only flawed arguments for X, is not the same as saying X is definitely false?

That's essentially why there are agnostic atheists.

Lets see if you ask for proof from any theist who claims "God exists". ;)

Theist: If God exists, there will be proof.
Atheist: No.

Thats a twist and shout situation.
 

MonkeyFire

Well-Known Member
And where is the proof that God is Love?

If we didn't reach nirvana, and time repeated itself there would be no love, just wounded angels. There are three options, only one is true, either we are stuck on temptation island forever, we move on and come back like were stuck in a circle, or we attain nirvana faith receives the miracle of life. We have all been cheated at least once, but to do that forever, that would not be good. What would I be able to believe? Would we really walk the earth hopeless. Fore I am fire I alone walk in the midst of the sun, only I can comprehend Her beauty. Pray to God, but HOPE is an unstoppable force and this world will get free.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Lets see if you ask for proof from any theist who claims "God exists". ;)

You completely ignored what I said. Go back and read it again, then you might understand.
Theist: If God exists, there will be proof.
Atheist: No.

Thats a twist and shout situation.

Actually my answer is not 'no', it's 'not necessarily'. See how I first answered the OP: #47.

Anyway, as you've still made no attempt to justify your original assertions, I assume you've just given up.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Perhaps you should consider a better group of people to hang out with.

Empirical evidence suggests that unconscious phenomena include repressed feelings, automatic skills, subliminal perceptions, and automatic reactions, and possibly also complexes, hidden phobias, and desires.
Unconscious mind - Wikipedia

We are all human beings. Perhaps you are superhuman.
Hypnosis often uncovers things about ourselves that we are
not consciously aware of.
 
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