If God exists why is he hiding?

[chinu]

Go to church and no one can even find him there. Look under every pew, no God. Search under the alter, no God. Crawl up into the ceiling, no God. Climb to the top of the steeple, no God. Get inside the bell tower again no God. Just at least pray for a sign, again no God. In this so called house of God there is no visible sign. If that is not hiding then what is?

This is... just a topic for discussion or chatting, not a serious or true heartly desire to see "God".

_/\_
Chinu ..... (Not God)

 

[thebigpicture]

I just feel if God really does exist, his existence, if it is that important to us, it should be a lot more intuitive than it is. Couldn't he have created evidence of his existence much much clearer than it is if he/she/it exists? Evidence as clear to us as the existence of the moon. He would not punish us for doubting the existence of the moon so why should he punish us for an entity which is far more obscure?

The Creator, Himself is not hiding; He is waiting.

 

[waitasec]

The Creator, Himself is not hiding; He is waiting.

for what?

 

[Willamena]

for what?

If you're skilled enough at it, you no longer require an object.

 

[waitasec]

If you're skilled enough at it, you no longer require an object.

if you're skilled enough at it, you no longer need to anticipate...

 

[outhouse]

if ALL god's are not man made creations, why do they all hide when they are said to be the creator and have all knowing power???????

 

[sandandfoam]

if ALL god's are not man made creations, why do they all hide when they are said to be the creator and have all knowing power???????

meh
I'd hide if I saw you coming too

 

[outhouse]

meh
I'd hide if I saw you coming too

sorry to go "off topic but here is a personal pick for you, just to show you how much we love you


we took this last weekend and i was thinking about you.

 

[sandandfoam]

sorry to go "off topic but here is a personal pick for you, just to show you how much we love you


we took this last weekend and i was thinking about you.

frubals frubals frubals

nice nice job! Thank you kindly!!

Was it THE bike or a replica? Did it run?

Nice. I'd love to see that thing go.

 

[outhouse]

frubals frubals frubals

nice nice job! Thank you kindly!!

Was it THE bike or a replica? Did it run?

Nice. I'd love to see that thing go.

its the real deal, the original and it runs they fired it up.

The blue one is Rockys bike, my riding partner/buddy. Its the new world record holder. In Sep we wil be out on the salt and he should hit 400+

he hit 394 coming out of the last mile trap. his data comp showed him picking up speed to 401.2 but thats unofficial.

[there is a one hour documentary on discovery channel this week I believe on rocky]

 

[sojourner]

Not really. I was saying that avarice, greed, and dissipation against a god that does not approve of these things would be disobedience toward him, not hiding from him. What are you getting at?

Of course they constitute hiding from God. Avarice and greed and dissipation are all about seeking satisfaction within ourselves and not within God. Therefore, to engage in them is to turn away from -- in other words, to hide from -- God. Avarice says, "If I can just accumulate enough, I'll be happy. Life in God says, "It's enough."

OK, well then he hasn't appeared to begin with, nor appears now, to most people.

Oh, I see. You've interviewed all people, right, in order to come up with this estimation. Perhaps you could provide a list of names of those whom you've interviewed, and we'll compare those who have with those who haven't.

But you can't hide from something that you know you can't hide from.

You can try. Anne Frank is a great example.

Its just your use of the word hide that is the problem here, because you think it makes such a clever retort to spin it back at humanity. The topic is about why god hides, even if we did hide from him, which would be impossible, letting alone your insistence that our such-evil selves do, its irrelevant

Well, the use of the word in the OP is similarly clever, being the case that it's used to disprove God's existence. How can a non-existent God hide from anything? If we're going to use the term "hide," then let's put the onus on the right party. And that party is humanity, just from the evidence of Genesis alone.

I'm satisfied its your assertion. I'm also satisfied that obviously its not concretely describable or plausible enough that you have to give up on presenting it.

I'm not "giving up on presenting it." I'm choosing to not throw that intimacy to the dogs here. There is a difference.

Because, once again, very very bad things happen to good people and vice versa.

Oh, well gee! Here, let me go start up the waaaaaahmbulance for you, if you're gonna whine.
PoE isn't even a vague argument for God's non-existence.

So you give credence to all the miracles in other religions' holy texts?

Sure. They have meaning for somenone, or they would be in there.

And conspiracy or denying "history" has nothing to do with the fact that the message of Jesus was unoriginal and just not very impressive.

Important things often bear repeating. However, it wasn't the words so much as it was God's act in becoming Incarnate (which is eminently original).

How do evils that nature subjects us to affect our beauty? If anything, our combating these evils is another that makes us beautiful. If only we could do as good and fast a job as an omnipotent being could. But he's too busy wanting us to have faith that he is there beyond the invisible.

...In other words: Humanity is Beautiful and God's to blame for it.

Alrighty, then!

 

[sojourner]

if you're skilled enough at it, you no longer need to anticipate...

Which is precisely what makes God Creator. God waited in silence (potential). Then God spoke and creation happened (kinesis). When God was done anticipating, God created. How is that hiding again?

 

[outhouse]

Which is precisely what makes God Creator

personal opinion only

God waited in silence (potential

because he was hiding???

Then God spoke and creation happened (kinesis).

imagination????

do you have anything to back that up besides imagination??

When God was done anticipating, God created

statements like that are outlawed from public schools.

there is no proof or evidence anywhere that a god created a spec of dust let alone everything

 

[sojourner]

personal opinion only

That's all that's required here. Nothing wrong with opinion.

because he was hiding???

From what??? Nothing else around to hide from.

imagination????

do you have anything to back that up besides imagination??

Genesis 1

statements like that are outlawed from public schools.

First of all, this isn't a public school. Second, If it were, this whole thread would be outlawed, including your contributions.

there is no proof or evidence anywhere that a god created a spec of dust let alone everything

Likewise, there's no proof or evidence anywhere that God didn't. And to say there is such is ...
wishful thinking?

 

[outhouse]

Genesis 1

possible fiction

even if its not fiction it has no historicity at all

Likewise, there's no proof or evidence anywhere that God didn't.

actually there is a mountain of evidence that supports the fact a deity did not create the earth as described in the book.

The evidence at hand points to a natural proccess that goes exactly against the words written in genesis.

Then we also have many of the early fables in the bible that are known to be false. Yout source has no credibility at all.

No gloabal flood
many languages before the tower of babel
earth not created in a week
earth not habitated in a week

ect ect ect

 

[sojourner]

possible fiction

even if its not fiction it has no historicity at all

It's neither history nor fiction. It's theology.

actually there is a mountain of evidence that supports the fact a deity did not create the earth as described in the book.

The evidence at hand points to a natural proccess that goes exactly against the words written in genesis.

Wait a minute! If the book's "fiction," you can't use it to support your argument, either. Fiction is fiction. There is no more evidence to show that God didn't create the universe than there is to show that God did.

No gloabal flood
many languages before the tower of babel
earth not created in a week
earth not habitated in a week

ect ect ect

I never said it was literally created that way, did I?

Yout source has no credibility at all.

It has theological credibility which is, after all, what we're after here.

 

[smidjit]

I just feel if God really does exist, his existence, if it is that important to us, it should be a lot more intuitive than it is. Couldn't he have created evidence of his existence much much clearer than it is if he/she/it exists? Evidence as clear to us as the existence of the moon. He would not punish us for doubting the existence of the moon so why should he punish us for an entity which is far more obscure?

Then faith would be obsolete

 

[jmvizanko]

Of course they constitute hiding from God. Avarice and greed and dissipation are all about seeking satisfaction within ourselves and not within God. Therefore, to engage in them is to turn away from -- in other words, to hide from -- God. Avarice says, "If I can just accumulate enough, I'll be happy. Life in God says, "It's enough."

Turning away from is not hiding from.

Oh, I see. You've interviewed all people, right, in order to come up with this estimation. Perhaps you could provide a list of names of those whom you've interviewed, and we'll compare those who have with those who haven't.

Most people that have existed have not believed in your god. That is an unquestionable fact.

You can try. Anne Frank is a great example.

Except that you can succeed at hiding from Nazis. It is, ONCE AGAIN, impossible by definition of your god to hide from him if he exists.

Well, the use of the word in the OP is similarly clever, being the case that it's used to disprove God's existence. How can a non-existent God hide from anything? If we're going to use the term "hide," then let's put the onus on the right party. And that party is humanity, just from the evidence of Genesis alone.

The point is why an existent god would hide, as obviously a non existent god can't hide much less do anything. And considering the PoE, a hiding god seems a lot less likely than no god to me and a lot of people. Not sure what you are getting at with Genesis, could you elaborate?

I'm not "giving up on presenting it." I'm choosing to not throw that intimacy to the dogs here. There is a difference.

Then don't expect me to assume your testament carries any weight. Like when you say things like "I have seen god, why don't you?"

Oh, well gee! Here, let me go start up the waaaaaahmbulance for you, if you're gonna whine.
PoE isn't even a vague argument for God's non-existence.

I'm not whining, and my life is pretty swell for the most part. But you tell some dying, tortured child that he should call the waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahmbulance, and then get back to me about the failure of the PoE.

Sure. They have meaning for somenone, or they would be in there.

So then you think those miracles happened too? Every single one listed in a holy book that is also mixed with a lot of history?

Important things often bear repeating. However, it wasn't the words so much as it was God's act in becoming Incarnate (which is eminently original).

If he was god incarnate, the words should be a good indicator of that. Instead we have generic philosophy from somebody that actually cares about other people. Not a first. And nothing that would indicate some exponentially higher form of intelligence.

...In other words: Humanity is Beautiful and God's to blame for it.

No.... (partly, because there are other reasons) humanity is beautiful because it rises to the challenge of overcoming natural evils that exist because either a) god doesn't exist and the universe has a large component that is random or b) god exists but apparently doesn't see a reason to stop them.

 

[sojourner]

Turning away from is not hiding from.

You're being waaaaaay too picayune about terminology. The attempt to hide from God is what keeps us from seeing God, for if we're turned away, surely we can't see God, right?

Most people that have existed have not believed in your god. That is an unquestionable fact.

Now you're changing the criterion of the debate? Now we're talking -- not about God -- but about MY God??? God can be conceptualized and seen in any number of ways. And I would counter that most people who have existed have believed in Deity of some kind. If you want to refute that, trot out your stats, plz.

Except that you can succeed at hiding from Nazis. It is, ONCE AGAIN, impossible by definition of your god to hide from him if he exists.

But it is, once again, possible to attempt to do so, which was my point.

The point is why an existent god would hide, as obviously a non existent god can't hide much less do anything. And considering the PoE, a hiding god seems a lot less likely than no god to me and a lot of people. Not sure what you are getting at with Genesis, could you elaborate?

My counter to the point is that an existent God does NOT hide, but we do, as per Genesis 2, when Adam and Eve hid in the Garden. They (as you point out) were unsuccessful, but they attempted to do so. You'll please note that it was the humans doing the hiding and God doing the seeking -- not the other way 'round, as the OP suggests.

Then don't expect me to assume your testament carries any weight.

I don't "expect" you to do anything with that information, other than poison it with poor attitude, which is why I'm declining to share it with you.

I'm not whining, and my life is pretty swell for the most part. But you tell some dying, tortured child that he should call the waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahmbulance, and then get back to me about the failure of the PoE.

I'm a minister. I've spent my share of time in the ER with grieving parents, grieving partners, and grieving children. And most of them found God in their pain and suffering. Most did not turn away in disappointment that God had let them down. Your assertion just doesn't hold up, in my experience.

So then you think those miracles happened too? Every single one listed in a holy book that is also mixed with a lot of history?

I never said that the miracles were historic certainties. They are theological certainties. (Again: That's what we're after here).

If he was god incarnate, the words should be a good indicator of that. Instead we have generic philosophy from somebody that actually cares about other people. Not a first. And nothing that would indicate some exponentially higher form of intelligence.

Why? Jesus was, after all, fully human. Again, it's not the teachings that effect salvation, it's God's act of grace that effects salvation.

No.... (partly, because there are other reasons) humanity is beautiful because it rises to the challenge of overcoming natural evils that exist because either a) god doesn't exist and the universe has a large component that is random or b) god exists but apparently doesn't see a reason to stop them.

You're forgetting C) Because God has given humanity the grace and fortitude to meet those challenges, as I have witnessed happen in the face of tragedy and suffering.

 

[jmvizanko]

You're being waaaaaay too picayune about terminology. The attempt to hide from God is what keeps us from seeing God, for if we're turned away, surely we can't see God, right?

The point is, we are visible to god. God is not visible to us. This is the basic observation behind the thread. Us doing things your god doesn't like doesn't matter. And I am a decent person, who is not turned away from any god. I just don't see any, so I don't believe in one. A god is definitely not actively seeking me, like you seem to think he does.

Now you're changing the criterion of the debate? Now we're talking -- not about God -- but about MY God??? God can be conceptualized and seen in any number of ways. And I would counter that most people who have existed have believed in Deity of some kind. If you want to refute that, trot out your stats, plz.

But people of other faiths didn't see your god. And anything they took away from "experiencing" their god confirmed their own faiths, that contradict yours. They aren't seeing your god, they are seeing the same nothing that you do, and its formulated by what they expect because of what they believe.

And yes, specifics matter. We are asking why a god/gods hide, and you are saying they didn't, which means you apparently see a god.

I don't "expect" you to do anything with that information, other than poison it with poor attitude, which is why I'm declining to share it with you.

It wouldn't be poor attitude, it would be looking at it objectively for any explanation, not just the one you want it to be.

I'm a minister. I've spent my share of time in the ER with grieving parents, grieving partners, and grieving children. And most of them found God in their pain and suffering. Most did not turn away in disappointment that God had let them down. Your assertion just doesn't hold up, in my experience.

That your false hope and pain meds helps them through the end doesn't stop the fact that they have a terrible disease to begin with. And what about a child that dies at 3? Or a child that dies of an extremely agonizing illness? What was the point of god doing that, when HE DIDN'T HAVE TO? The best answer is that he isn't there, or he is an evil drunk. I'll assume the former.

I never said that the miracles were historic certainties. They are theological certainties. (Again: That's what we're after here).

What on earth does theological certainty mean?

Why? Jesus was, after all, fully human. Again, it's not the teachings that effect salvation, it's God's act of grace that effects salvation.

So if what Jesus did wasn't important at all, what was the point of sending him?

You're forgetting C) Because God has given humanity the grace and fortitude to meet those challenges, as I have witnessed happen in the face of tragedy and suffering.

What's better, giving man the ability to fight [insert terrible disease], or NOT CREATING IT IN THE FIRST PLACE OR CURING EVERY CASE?