If God exists why is he hiding?

[Willamena]

Wishful thinking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What he meant (which was plain to me) was that he didn't employ wishful thinking. I agree.

 

[Koldo]

Apparently, you do, for this isn't a logical fallacy -- except when you label it "wishful thinking."

This what?
When you say that you see God everywhere?

Justification is never a good reason.

"...Honest, officer! I thought he had pulled a gun on me!..."

I don't understand what you want to mean by this.

You're not goading me into this, just so you can have fun at the expense of my well-being. Find yourself another rube.

Why would i make fun of whatever evidence/explanation you could give to prove your point? Is it so weak that i would be compelled to do that or something?

 

[sojourner]

This what?
When you say that you see God everywhere?

isn't that what we're arguing? That my seeing God isn't wishful thinking?

I don't understand what you want to mean by this.

Look again:

When something fits in a certain description, a given label is appropiate

The person thought what he saw fit a "certain description" (a gun). your argument wouldn't stand up in court -- and it doesn't stand here. [very slowly and distinctly, as to a small child] You...are...mistaken...about...this.
Understand now? This isn't "wishful thinking." Even if you think it is.

Why would i make fun of whatever evidence/explanation you could give to prove your point? Is it so weak that i would be compelled to do that or something?

No, but enough atheists here typically do that, which makes me very careful. This is private, personal, and intimate. Not gonna share it. It wouldn't convince you anyway. you're gonna have to respect me on this.

 

[Koldo]

isn't that what we're arguing? That my seeing God isn't wishful thinking?

We have gone through your other fallacies as well.
But, yes, the main subject is your wishful thinking.

Look again:

The person thought what he saw fit a "certain description" (a gun). your argument wouldn't stand up in court -- and it doesn't stand here. [very slowly and distinctly, as to a small child] You...are...mistaken...about...this.
Understand now? This isn't "wishful thinking." Even if you think it is.

The object the guy saw resembled a gun.
It didn't fit the definition of a gun as a whole.
On the other hand, your argument fits in the description of 'wishful thinking' as a whole.

No, but enough atheists here typically do that, which makes me very careful. This is private, personal, and intimate. Not gonna share it. It wouldn't convince you anyway. you're gonna have to respect me on this.

First of all, i am not atheist. However, you are free to don't share what would possibly make your argument something more than wishful thinking if you don't feel like doing it. Just keep in mind that unsupported arguments hold no value specially in this section of the forum.

 

[sojourner]

We have gone through your other fallacies as well.
But, yes, the main subject is your wishful thinking.



The object the guy saw resembled a gun.
It didn't fit the definition of a gun as a whole.
On the other hand, your argument fits in the description of 'wishful thinking' as a whole.



First of all, i am not atheist. However, you are free to don't share what would possibly make your argument something more than wishful thinking if you don't feel like doing it. Just keep in mind that unsupported arguments hold no value specially in this section of the forum.

I'd caution you to keep that in mind while calling my experiences "wishful thinking."

 

[Koldo]

I'd caution you to keep that in mind while calling my experiences "wishful thinking."

Experiences are not wishful thinking.
But your interpretation of said experiences can be.

Considering your interpretation is that you see God everywhere...

 

[zorrro]

Interesting!! The Jewish people have a saying that if God had his home here on earth - humans would break his windows. But seriously, God personally, (did I say personally) guided and governed a nation a long time ago This nation did not want for anything!!! Why should they - God was their president and king. He would guide them daily. he provided food when they need it , rain when they needed it, protection when they needed it, yes he there for them - it was a true theocracy. Guess what? They(Israelites) told Samuel "Tell God we want a human king like all the other nations." Boy was God ever hurt- hoy vey!!! God's comments of rejection are possibly the saddest ever written by a deity. God thought he was doing a good job of taking care of a nation. So, clearly we do not want God around. Next, Jesus the Chirst made miracles after miracle to prove he was the Son of God and guess what? They still did not believe he was the Son of God. They DEMANDED more proof from Jesus. You know what he told them "Go to hxxx" Jesus told the Proof demanders in the fourth gospel that "The only other miracle to prove to you that I am the Son of God will be my three day resurecction miracle." Quite frankly, asking for "proof" of God's existence is a farce. Jesus provided it and they refused his proof or they wanted more. Why should God have to prove to us (mere insignificant ants) who he is over and over again. God (the real one- YHWH) had a personal talk with Job and in chapter 38 to 40 explains to Job what he would be explaining to each of us who want or demand proof God exists. It would be nice for his believers to be able to ask God to send a lightning rod to demonstrate God's existence and to prove we are sons of God, but all in all God is there and he can't be "proving" himself to everyone everytime someone doesn't believe him. Believe me, miracles and proofs do not work on persons who will NEVER believe in God. Proofs are a waste on these humans. I have always enjoyed YHWH's personal talk with Cain. God personally pleaded with Cain not to kill his brother. Cain did not listen to God. And do you know why, God was a nobody to him. No amount of talk from God personally would change his mind. Incredible. We humans are rather incredible. That is why God repented from having created us in Gen. 6:1-18.

 

[sojourner]

Experiences are not wishful thinking.
But your interpretation of said experiences can be.

Considering your interpretation is that you see God everywhere...

You have no idea what my experiences are. Therefore, I don't see how you can possibly label my interpretation of them as "wishful thinking." Unless you're just trying to insult me.

You said you're not an atheist. Don't you see God everywhere?

 

[Koldo]

You have no idea what my experiences are. Therefore, I don't see how you can possibly label my interpretation of them as "wishful thinking." Unless you're just trying to insult me.

You said that you see God everywhere.
If you do see God everywhere then you would promptly supply me with evidence even if anedoctal of your sights. However, you prefer to keep your experience in secrecy which makes it very plausible for me to believe you are attributing something to be God/God's action. And that is why i say it is wishful thinking.

You said you're not an atheist. Don't you see God everywhere?

No, i don't. I have never seen God.

 

[jmvizanko]

I mentioned avarice, greed and dissipation. That was countered with "disobedience." I wondered what laws exist against these things that would make engaging in them "disobedience." Back on track now?

Not really. I was saying that avarice, greed, and dissipation against a god that does not approve of these things would be disobedience toward him, not hiding from him. What are you getting at?

Perhaps not to you, but your POV doesn't constitute all of reality.

OK, well then he hasn't appeared to begin with, nor appears now, to most people. And these are the people that wonder why, if there was a god, it would hide like any existing god does.

Oh, we can hide, but God can certainly find us. That doesn't lie at odds with "my definition" of God, at all.

But you can't hide from something that you know you can't hide from. Its just your use of the word hide that is the problem here, because you think it makes such a clever retort to spin it back at humanity. The topic is about why god hides, even if we did hide from him, which would be impossible, letting alone your insistence that our such-evil selves do, its irrelevant

Because if I open myself that much, the nasty-*** atheists will jump on that "logical weakness" like a chicken on a June bug. I don't wish to whore out my well-being for your entertainment. You'll just have to be satisfied with my assertion that I've seen God and let it go at that.

I'm satisfied its your assertion. I'm also satisfied that obviously its not concretely describable or plausible enough that you have to give up on presenting it.

...if logic isn't called for, why not?

Can you please explain to me what the relevant instance is where it is not called for?

The real question here is why is your attitude so skewed that you think God isn't present and helpful?

Because, once again, very very bad things happen to good people and vice versa. The universe behaves randomly. There are a billion things god could come and do to eliminate such random evils and make life better for everyone here, yet he just sits back because he has some need for us to have faith. To me its not believable that such a being exists.

...and the lunar landings were staged from Area 51 in order to dupe the public...

So you give credence to all the miracles in other religions' holy texts? And conspiracy or denying "history" has nothing to do with the fact that the message of Jesus was unoriginal and just not very impressive.

doesn't change the illogic of your statement. Your statement was how beautiful humanity was. Obviously, if this is your observation, it's not! Now you want to blame humanity's ills on a "non-existent" God. You can't switch between "hypotheticals" at a whim. Either we're assuming God's existence for purposes of your argument, or not.

How do evils that nature subjects us to affect our beauty? If anything, our combating these evils is another that makes us beautiful. If only we could do as good and fast a job as an omnipotent being could. But he's too busy wanting us to have faith that he is there beyond the invisible.

 

[atanu]

I exist

How do you know you exist? Are you owner or creator of the awareness that tells "I exist"? Are you owner/creator of energy that moves your so-called body? Are you creator/owner of your body? Have you assembled the diverse things together that gets called as an intelligent body?

Have you ever questioned your own existence? What is that which truly exists as you?

you can tell them what it looks like, how great it will taste, you can even tell them you can smell it because its a magic pizza. But your friends will never tatse it, Ever.

But in dream you really enjoy a dream Pizza with friends. Only out of dream state you know that it was a mental Pizza. And you really enjoy the waking time Pizza also. The problem is that many have taken the waking time Pizza as a permanent fixture of existence. But they consider the power of awareness as temporary.

 

[outhouse]

How do you know you exist? Are you owner or creator of the awareness that tells "I exist"? Are you owner/creator of energy that moves your so-called body? Are you creator/owner of your body? Have you assembled the diverse things together that gets called as an intelligent body?

Have you ever questioned your own existence? What is that which truly exists as you?



But in dream you really enjoy a dream Pizza with friends. Only out of dream state you know that it was a mental Pizza. And you really enjoy the waking time Pizza also. The problem is that many have taken the waking time Pizza as a permanent fixture of existence. But they consider the power of awareness as temporary.

you havnt said a word that deals with anything outside of imagination and fantasy did you ???

 

[atanu]

you havnt said a word that deals with anything outside of imagination and fantasy did you ???

I asked you questions.

How do you know you exist? Are you owner or creator of the awareness that tells "I exist"? Are you owner/creator of energy that moves your so-called body? Are you creator/owner of your body? Have you assembled the diverse things together that gets called as an intelligent body?

Have you ever questioned your own existence? What is that which truly exists as you?

You think those questions are fantasy?

 

[outhouse]

You think those questions are fantasy?

There off topic

you also claim a creator, to me that is fantasy

 

[Acim]

if you imagine a pizza, does it exist so you can share it with friends????

Does not the thought of the pizza exist?

Please explain to me, in your understanding how "sharing" exists? What does that look like in the physical world?

you can tell them what it looks like, how great it will taste, you can even tell them you can smell it because its a magic pizza. But your friends will never tatse it, Ever.

And how might you know that?

 

[Acim]

Seriously?Being able to distinguish reality from fantasy is something I find to be a good thing.
Now I understand that there are people in the world who much prefer fantasy over reality.
I just happen to NOT be one of them.

When experiencing night dreams, and in the middle of any experience / situation in that 'reality,' are you always able, sometimes able, or closer to never able to distinguish that 'reality' from this 'reality?'

Also, how are you able to distinguish this 'reality' from imagination? Where is the objectivity?

 

[Acim]

Quite clearly a REAL experience cannot be imaginary.

If this is accurate, then any perceived existence that is 'outside of us' (or me) that has form (or is imaged) would be not real. Or more accurately, would be imagined. Calculating math, which is without form, and need not the use of symbolism, while utilizing a pure language, would be REAL experience. As would, arguably, meditation and contemplation. But perception, coinciding with projection (or reality outside and around), would be imagined.

Yes, me getting hit by a car could be considered real.

If you get hit by a visible car and have sensation of pain, while in experience of a night dream, would that be considered real?

What the hell does a real experience have to do with an invisible God?

If invisible to the body's eyes, the tool of projection / perception, then the contemplation and meditation with such a Being, may be that which is precisely real (experience), while arguably the other is imagined reality, with an imagined end, to an imagined existence.

 

[Acim]

please do tell us exactly how it is that you can see God. I know your scared of the nasty atheists pointing out the logical fallacies, but honestly.... Were already pointing out your logical fallacies, why not contribute to the main idea behind the thread? That is why is God hiding... If you can see God, then please teach us all how. I want to see God too. Maybe you could describe his face so I am sure that I am looking at God. Does he have a body? Is he blonde or red haired? Does his face shine with bronze or is it just a blob? Little details like this can make what your saying a bit more substantial. Otherwise it isn't likely that you have actually seen God.

I already noted this earlier in the thread (#23), and magically, that was ignored. Perhaps no logical fallacies to be found?

Repeated from that post: The first shift in understanding that must occur, is you gotta kinda sorta realize that the body's eyes are not going to 'see' God. Just like the body's eyes cannot see math, nor reason, nor Life, nor Love. If you have the intellectual honesty to make that shift (or really allow for it), then I say it will be impossible to understand God as hiding. Seriously, knock and the door is open. It is that simple.

The kicker, I would add, is you (or I) don't have to call what is seen, "God." For ultimately, such a reference would be a symbol of a symbol, rather than direct experience. And for intellectual fun, you can reference it as FSM, or imagination, or delusion, or truth, or as I am. If looking once, with not so hidden agenda of, "this isn't going to work, who am I fooling? Stupid believers, who are self deluded," then yeah, I wouldn't be too surprised if results of that are "hmm, nothing really came up, but I did try."

Have a sincere heart, a genuine disposition of finding inner connection, and willingness to go at it say 3 to 7 times (up to 1 week) and report findings then. It is plausible, to me, that you may see / feel next to nothing, but being the betting person I am, if one is sincere / genuine, I strongly believe connection and in-sight is predictable and in domain of "likely."

 

[atanu]

There off topic

Outhouse

Kindly answer and then let us decide whether the questions are off-topic or not. Or, you need not even answer them. Just introspection will do; it will show that we do not know ourselves yet we know that God is illiterate, hiding etc etc.

Truly, I have not asked those questions to get any answers from you (since I do not have any), but to initiate introspection in those who read this.

you also claim a creator, to me that is fantasy

Where did i claim that?

 

[Acim]

But you can't hide from something that you know you can't hide from. Its just your use of the word hide that is the problem here, because you think it makes such a clever retort to spin it back at humanity. The topic is about why god hides, even if we did hide from him, which would be impossible, letting alone your insistence that our such-evil selves do, its irrelevant

It is not entirely accurate to say it is impossible to hide from God. To see / understand it as 'not possible,' would be to see the perceptual order as illusion, that equates to nothingness. Kinda like how night dreams may appear to our perspective upon waking AND denial. For in the dream, the illusion and its activity seems possible, I would even say 'real.' Upon waking, and realizing it was 'just a dream' it still seems like the illusion occurred. A bit of a catch-22, but like memories of what has past, it is etched upon the mind as 'having been experienced.' And yet, dreams that are forgotten, like memories that are forgotten (and denied) are hidden from us.

Dreams, like past memories, are what was. They are understood (I think) as unreal and/or illusionary. (Presence of) God is understood (I reason) as what is. The physical world, and more precisely, our interpretation of it / perception is seeing what 'was.' I would say both scientifically and spiritually it is not possible to see physical world as it is, and intellectually, I think most get this. So, as long as we are self identifying with physical reality as 'only reality in which sight exists' then we are experiencing a state that is hidden from God.

I believe, strongly, that the last statement is easier said than understood. And akin to someone entering a night dream and telling 'you' that 'you' are asleep. Such an assertion wouldn't necessarily lead to waking up, nor completely doubting the visible reality that is all around you and "is" 'you.'

And yet, it is also my understanding, I would say fairly clear understanding, that Creator God has sent countless Helpers, Guides, Teachers, what have you, into the illusion to essentially wake us up, and/or make present reminders that this 'reality' is not all there is to Life.

very very bad things happen to good people and vice versa. The universe behaves randomly. There are a billion things god could come and do to eliminate such random evils and make life better for everyone here, yet he just sits back because he has some need for us to have faith. To me its not believable that such a being exists.

Ah, the problem of evil. As if the dreamer, or observer, is not responsible for what he/she sees. While it is conceivable to me that God is 'just sitting back, doing nothing,' I find it to be an unreasonable claim. Mostly because there is no 'here' in the perceptual order, anymore than there is a 'here' that is real in night dreams, so "making life better for everyone here" is a non sequitur. At the same time, we are those beings which have that very desire, to make things better (or worse) in the perceived here and now, and that power is given us, by remembering to be who We Are. It is a natural power, and involves no (black) magic to correct / heal any perceived problem, but again, it does involve willingness to see without using body's eyes as only tool for 'sight' for clearly that is unreasonable, when put in proper perspective (aka honesty). The natural power equals Love and is invoked via forgiveness.

The willingness to trust such power invokes miracles. And as I've stated elsewhere, miracles are natural. When they do not occur, something has gone wrong.