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If God is all-knowing...

lunamoth

Will to love
"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." Timothy 1:15

OK, I agree with the above.

If you've read the bible through and through as many times as I have, I only see one way.
That's because there was one way that happened. The cross. And the evangelists and Paul and the rest viewed the Cross and our salvation through the Resurrection. So that's what is written.

But if it had to happen that way, then limits were placed on free will (which makes a farce of the whole free will argument), and it also says that God killed himself and in fact did not really die, it was all an act in which we had no real participation.

I don't think it had to unfold the way it did.

Could you explain a bit more how you feel as though God could not know the future and the way Jesus would choose to live his life according to His will? I'm not quite getting your drift.

Jesus on earth was fully human but there was no gap at all, no separation at all, between Jesus' and God's will. That did not mean he could tell the future (or know quantum physics etc.). We would live exactly as Jesus did if our will was perfectly aligned with God's.
 
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tomspug

Absorbant
I think the whole predestination/free will argument is way overblown. We like to think that there are multiple possibilities in life... this kind of thinking is what leads people to depression, regret and self-hatred. The truth is that things can ONLY happen ONE way, because once something happens, you can't change it!

What you can "make" (not change) is the present, but you can't change the past. What is the point of thinking about what MIGHT have happened or what COULD have been done differently when it CAN'T and it WON'T because it already DID happen?!
 

tomspug

Absorbant
I think the whole predestination/free will argument is way overblown. We like to think that there are multiple possibilities in life... this kind of thinking is what leads people to depression, regret and self-hatred. The truth is that things can ONLY happen ONE way, because once something happens, you can't change it!

What you can "make" (not change) is the present, but you can't change the past. What is the point of thinking about what MIGHT have happened or what COULD have been done differently when it CAN'T and it WON'T because it already DID happen?!
Buttercup, I think that you can relate to this. Oftentimes, the Christian church INCREASES guilt by focusing on your mistakes, as if Jesus could have lived your life for you and made "all the right choices". But Jesus doesn't live your life for you, and he won't. You can't change the past, and God has no intention of INCREASING your guilt, regret and self-hatred.

By saying that there are multiple paths to life, you are basically believing that God has no control over the fulfillment of his kingdom. He's sitting around waiting until we stop making wrong choices and start doing what he wants us to do. If so, then God is a CRUEL God for not being more specific about what the right choices are! If, however, everything that has happened over history, is exactly how God planned it, then we are only responsible for ourselves, which is what the Bible tells us to be.

When we hold ourselves responsible for God, that's when you get theocracy, holy wars, political churches, denominations, etc. Everything bad that the church does is based in this belief, that God is not in charge of this world, we are, so we better not mess it up!
 

lunamoth

Will to love
I think the whole predestination/free will argument is way overblown. We like to think that there are multiple possibilities in life... this kind of thinking is what leads people to depression, regret and self-hatred. The truth is that things can ONLY happen ONE way, because once something happens, you can't change it!

What you can "make" (not change) is the present, but you can't change the past. What is the point of thinking about what MIGHT have happened or what COULD have been done differently when it CAN'T and it WON'T because it already DID happen?!

Things in the past happened one way, but if there is freedom in the present moment then the future does have multiple possibilities. I'm not sure why you think this leads to depression. To me it seems like the opposite would be true. To think that my future is already written and I'm just going through the motions would lead to a kind of fatalism, more depressing than the idea that I can make choices that matter.
 

tomspug

Absorbant
Things in the past happened one way, but if there is freedom in the present moment then the future does have multiple possibilities. I'm not sure why you think this leads to depression. To me it seems like the opposite would be true. To think that my future is already written and I'm just going through the motions would lead to a kind of fatalism, more depressing than the idea that I can make choices that matter.
Maybe you can "think" that, but the truth is that depression IS caused by regret and self-hatred. And those symptoms are the result of contemplating the imaginary past. You either dwell in your mistakes or long for a different past.

Wouldn't it have been better if Jesus's second coming had already happened? Well, maybe not. Obviously, only God knows when this will be. Is God then interfering on my free will? Does God not know, in the moment, whether or not I will do a good thing? Is God on the edge of his seat with unknowing anticipation?

Don't you see what this does? It intentionally weakens God. It makes ourselves feel more powerful, more in control. Because, secretly, we hate God's power. We want it for ourselves, and the idea that God knows us not only scares us, it sickens us. Ironically, we want to be known and don't want to be known at the same time.

I know my wife well, and she loves that. She loves it when I can tell when she's upset, even if she doesn't say anything. She delights in how I can anticipate her wants and help her make up her mind. Why is it that we don't allow God to be exactly the same? He created us, for goodness sake. You're trying to rationalize away the idea of omniscience because it makes you uncomfortable, not because it isn't supported by scripture.

We still have will. We still make decisions, but it is not our direct responsibility to do God's job. We have our own jobs, our own lives, and we choose whether or not to glorify God. Does that somehow change if God knows what choices we will make? God doesn't need us to glorify him, he will be glorified no matter what. So we should stop concerning ourselves with the past and live in the present, focusing on what we, as individuals, should be doing.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Maybe you can "think" that, but the truth is that depression IS caused by regret and self-hatred. And those symptoms are the result of contemplating the imaginary past. You either dwell in your mistakes or long for a different past.
Sorry, but no. As someone who struggles with depression, this is simply untrue.
 

tomspug

Absorbant
Things in the past happened one way, but if there is freedom in the present moment then the future does have multiple possibilities.
How many? Is it possible for God's kingdom to NOT come? Is it possible for humanity to NOT be saved? Is it possible for all of the Bible to be wrong? Is it possible that none of us know God at all?

Where does it end? It seems innocent to say that there are a few possibilities, but you can't do that. Either there's one way it will happen... or ANYTHING can happen! Either God is in control, or he's not... Does that make sense? There isn't a middle-ground, and the implications of the "God is not in control" argument are, frankly, frightening.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Please feel free to correct me. I don't mind. Are regret and self-hatred not symptoms of depression?
Symptoms, yes. Not causes. The cause is a hormonal imbalance in the brain (assuming we're talking about clinical depression, as opposed to a bad day).
 

tomspug

Absorbant
Symptoms, yes. Not causes. The cause is a hormonal imbalance in the brain (assuming we're talking about clinical depression, as opposed to a bad day).
Ah, I see... But then how do you explain someone who successfully recovers from clinical depression?
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Ah, I see... But then how do you explain someone who successfully recovers from clinical depression?
They have corrected the imbalance, it's not impossible. Both regular medication and CBT can retrain the brain, and those are just the methods I know of.
 

tomspug

Absorbant
They have corrected the imbalance, it's not impossible. Both regular medication and CBT can retrain the brain, and those are just the methods I know of.
So you don't think that state of mind has anything to do with the imbalance?
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend lunamoth,

od as becoming, rather than being. In which case I think God is 'eternal in each moment,' if you can make any sense of that.
Frubals but am out of stock for today.

That is correct except that you name it *process philosophy*, which is a mind game.
Love & rgds
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
So you don't think that state of mind has anything to do with the imbalance?
I didn't say that. CBT wouldn't work at all if that were the case. Clinical depression is a downward spiral, with the imbalance and the symptoms aggravating each other. It can sometimes be corrected by approaching from either angle, but a combination is most effective. I'm just saying that you were conflating the symptoms with the disease itself. Just as a runny nose is not the cause of the flu, regret, etc. are not the causes of depression.
 

lunamoth

Will to love
Maybe you can "think" that, but the truth is that depression IS caused by regret and self-hatred. And those symptoms are the result of contemplating the imaginary past. You either dwell in your mistakes or long for a different past.
Regret is looking on our past mistakes. I have regrets. I think it would be unhealthy for me to look at my life and say 'well, I had no control over any of that.' Of course I did not have control over everything, but if I did not have control over my choices then how could we hold ourselves responsible for anything? A completely deterministic world can not have ethics.

Depression is an illness, a veil that clouds our thinking. It is in need of healing.

Wouldn't it have been better if Jesus's second coming had already happened? Well, maybe not. Obviously, only God knows when this will be. Is God then interfering on my free will? Does God not know, in the moment, whether or not I will do a good thing? Is God on the edge of his seat with unknowing anticipation?
God, in the moment, lures you to do the good thing. You have free will whether or not to follow that. The 'weight' of our past and our connection to all eternity in the moment (including God's lure) influence our choice, but we make the choice.


Don't you see what this does? It intentionally weakens God. It makes ourselves feel more powerful, more in control. Because, secretly, we hate God's power. We want it for ourselves, and the idea that God knows us not only scares us, it sickens us. Ironically, we want to be known and don't want to be known at the same time.
No, I don't think it weakens God, nor does it make me feel more powerful. I think your example with your wife is a good one. God knows us the way you know your wife, but of course even more so. That idea does scare me (and comformts me greatly as well -- I added this so you might miss it if responding right now), but I believe it anyway.

However, you do not make the choices for your wife, you do not know exactly what she will do next. You can make a good guess. You know that if you want to have a good relationship with her you should treat her in a certain way. If you want her to agree to something you want to do, you can't force her but you can influence her with your love and reason. If she does not do what you want her to do, you can find another way to get it done.

The thing about love is that for it to remain love it gives up all claim to power. That is the kind of omnipotence that God has.

Maybe I misunderstand you, but you seem to say there is no free will.

I know my wife well, and she loves that. She loves it when I can tell when she's upset, even if she doesn't say anything. She delights in how I can anticipate her wants and help her make up her mind. Why is it that we don't allow God to be exactly the same? He created us, for goodness sake. You're trying to rationalize away the idea of omniscience because it makes you uncomfortable, not because it isn't supported by scripture.
Yes, I think this is a good analogy as I said above.

We still have will. We still make decisions, but it is not our direct responsibility to do God's job. We have our own jobs, our own lives, and we choose whether or not to glorify God. Does that somehow change if God knows what choices we will make? God doesn't need us to glorify him, he will be glorified no matter what. So we should stop concerning ourselves with the past and live in the present, focusing on what we, as individuals, should be doing.

I'm not really sure where we are disagreeing from the above, except that I think the future is unwritten so unknowable, and thus God does not need to know the future to be omniscient. He knows me in the present moment as fully as is possible, in the way thay you know your wife but more so. This does not mean you know the future, only that you know your wife.

Yet, if God is an Agent (and I think He is), then He can introduce His own will in a way that is independent of the choices humans make. He can enter our experience as His own Person (Christ), He can send other agents (angels?), He can guide us when we turn to Him in prayer.
 
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Rhonan

Member
Then, even if he didn't involve himself once after the creation of the universe, he would still have the foresight and knowledge to determine exactly what would occur throughout the course of history. So what difference does it make to be a deist or a theist unless you believe that God is bound by time... but if God is bound by time, then who created God?

Here is how I see it:

God existed before the universe

God initiated the creation of the universe

Ergo, God is not bound by time

Therefore, God knows what will happen because he sees time all at once.

~
If God is bound by time, then God isn't God. If this is true that the universe had some other first cause. If this is true than this would mean that God is only a human concept.
~

Let's assume God is not bound by time - another human concept. God exists outside of time and space.

God knows everything that has and will happen - yet that in no way revokes our free will to choose our own actions.

To put it simply - say that you read a book or watch a film. You know what happens if you read the book or watch the film a second time. Yet, you do not control the characters; you simply watch them make their own decisions and play out their own fate. You may love certain characters, but if they get killed, you cannot prevent their death. You didn't write the book, and you didn't direct the film - their lives played out on their own. Yet, because you exist outside of the time frame of a book or movie - you see the progression of events as something that has already taken place.

This is how it is with God. In my view God is able to commune with human beings spiritually without violating the law of free will.

The difference between Theism and Deism is thus:

Deism teaches God initiated the Universe and then became a spectator of events.

Theism teaches that God intercedes with people all the time and that man can know God - also there are those who believe that God can break universal laws at any given time... (The creation, miracles, etc)

I believe in Theistic Evolution - that is I believe natural laws initiated by God have not been broken, but that God communes with mankind on a spiritual level, and men with God. This fellowship breaks no universal laws - therefore it is plausible. I call it Deistic-Theism. However, I am more of a Theist because I believe that somethings - some miracles - cannot always be explained away. I also believe that most miracles are just a matter of mathematics and probability. Lots of things have happened throughout time that cannot be explained away. We hear often of people waking up in morgues, coming back to life after being brain dead etc. These things happened, so they didn't break the laws of the universe, yet they can be said to be miracles because they aren't easily explained away.

:)
 

lunamoth

Will to love
How many? Is it possible for God's kingdom to NOT come? Is it possible for humanity to NOT be saved? Is it possible for all of the Bible to be wrong? Is it possible that none of us know God at all?

Where does it end? It seems innocent to say that there are a few possibilities, but you can't do that. Either there's one way it will happen... or ANYTHING can happen! Either God is in control, or he's not... Does that make sense? There isn't a middle-ground, and the implications of the "God is not in control" argument are, frankly, frightening.

I don't know how many, but it does not take a great leap of imagination to get to a near infinity of possibilities.

We have been saved through Christ (although it still takes our involvment, at least the point of acceptance).

The Bible is not 'wrong.' We learn about God's purpose (of redemption) and character (in Christ's life and love) from the Bible. I'm not sure where you get that I would not think that.

God has plan and purpose for us, He is 'in control' yet not controlling us. Can't I be 'in control' of my love for, devotion to, good intentions for and to a certain extent the environment of my children without controlling them and making their decisions for them? Can I not intervene in their lives with my own actions if I choose, yet without taking away thier own choices and reactions to my intervention?

Anything can happen, but God also has choice in the matter.
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
But if it had to happen that way, then limits were placed on free will (which makes a farce of the whole free will argument), and it also says that God killed himself and in fact did not really die, it was all an act in which we had no real participation.

I don't think it had to unfold the way it did.
I don't understand how a person can believe in the Christ who was written of in the bible, believe that he was wholly God, as written in the bible, believe that he came as a advocate against sin as written and then chuck the rest of the clear theme as presented. You're picking what you want to believe and disregarding the rest by doing so, aren't you? (not that I have any problem with that, mind you :) )
 

lunamoth

Will to love
I don't understand how a person can believe in the Christ who was written of in the bible, believe that he was wholly God, as written in the bible, believe that he came as a advocate against sin as written and then chuck the rest of the clear theme as presented. You're picking what you want to believe and disregarding the rest by doing so, aren't you? (not that I have any problem with that, mind you :) )

What have I chucked out?
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
You can't change the past, and God has no intention of INCREASING your guilt, regret and self-hatred.
As a former Christian, I simply can't agree with this statement. Our utter worthlessness and sin is a constant theme in any sermon I've ever heard. It's difficult to not internalize some of that projected guilt and self hatred over time. I never did try an Episcopalian church though...maybe I should do that. :D
 
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