If god knew.....

[javajo]

"How can they call on him unless they believe in him? How can they believe in him unless they hear about him? How can they hear about him unless someone preaches to them? And how can anyone preach without being sent? It is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"—(Romans 10:14-15 & Isaiah 52:7)"

What's wrong with, "Every man has the right to go to hell in his own way?"

Why can't I simply be left alone?

That's why I don't answer the door to some of the visitors that come by. A Christian has a duty to tell others about Christ, but if they don't want to hear it they have a duty to let them be. A Christian is not to strive, but to be gentle, there are other religions that convert people at the point of a sword.

 

[javajo]

So in order to get god to love me so I'll be saved from the wages of my sins, I have to "trust him." Those that trust him will have their sins absolved. Those that don't trust him won't. While this is obviously his call, I have to wonder why this is so damn important to god. Exactly what is it about others trusting oneself (god, in this case) that it should be the deal breaker between sending someone to heaven rather than hell. I don't know of anyone else who would ever set such a strange standard for such dire consequences. Why does god have this extreme need to be trusted? The "I will love you if you trust me" conditional makes no more sense than "I will love you and save you from your sins if you eat cabbage."

And, of course, this does amount to sucking up: pleasing god by doing what he requires in order to get the present he dangles from his hand. Don't do what he requires and not only don't you get the present but you get to clean the toilet as punishment for not pleasing him.

I believe its a spiritual law and it is hard to grasp. Basically we all sinned, the penalty is death so Christ paid the penalty. Its like if we were in the middle of the ocean, no boat, no life preserver. Someone may come and read instructions on how to swim, someone may get in and demonstrate how to swim, but Jesus comes, dives in, gets us in the boat and takes us all the way to dry land and never throws us out before we get there. He died and rose again to pay for our sins and triumph over death that we may live eternally. That is why he is called Saviour. I don't know of anyone else in the world that was able to do that for me.

 

[Gloone]

He did it (died on the cross) to prove a point and set an example. He did it to show the world how morally corrupt people are, that they would kill a person who was innocent and free from sin. He died on the cross to show the world that people were not living the way God had intended for people to live. He gave his life for us, so that maybe one day people would live to do the right thing and to be one with God as God created us to be.

 

[ninerbuff]

That's why I don't answer the door to some of the visitors that come by. A Christian has a duty to tell others about Christ, but if they don't want to hear it they have a duty to let them be. A Christian is not to strive, but to be gentle, there are other religions that convert people at the point of a sword.

So you don't open your doors to mormons?

 

[ninerbuff]

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned...But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:12,8

And that answer my question how?

 

[ninerbuff]

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. Romans 5:15

When a man works, his pay is not considered a gift. It is owed to him. But things are different with God. He makes evil people right with himself. If people trust in him, their faith is acceptedeven though they do not work. Their faith makes them right with God...God makes those people right with himself. But they don't have to do anything in return. Romans 4:4-6

I.E. no "____ing up" required.

Understand the word free. That means without obligation. In order to receive what you describe as a "free gift", you are obligated to accept what a god says and obligated to obey. So the gift is "complimentary".

 

[javajo]

God makes those people right with himself. But they don't have to do anything in return. Romans 4:6

 

[Skwim]

I believe its a spiritual law and it is hard to grasp. Basically we all sinned, the penalty is death so Christ paid the penalty.

Trusting god is a spiritual law? A law that god is required to follow, or just something he decided would be his operating rule (law)?

Its like if we were in the middle of the ocean, no boat, no life preserver. Someone may come and read instructions on how to swim, someone may get in and demonstrate how to swim, but Jesus comes, dives in, gets us in the boat and takes us all the way to dry land and never throws us out before we get there. He died and rose again to pay for our sins and triumph over death that we may live eternally. That is why he is called Saviour. I don't know of anyone else in the world that was able to do that for me.

I fail to see how this explains god's need to be trusted. As it stands it comes across as a bit wacky. It's as if he closed his eyes, threw a dart, and hit "TRUST ME" on the Dartboard of Reasons I To Love. Do you base your love of others on whether they trust you or not? Assuming you're like other people, and don't, perhaps you will see how crazy it is for god to do such a thing. Trust just isn't one of those love engendering things.

 

[search the scriptures]

"that jesus was going to die for our sins, and that resurrection was going to happen, then the question is how is this a "sacrifice" if the end result was jesus being raised from the dead? It's like he never died then."

sacrificial death happens in the physical world, for physical humans. the physical death is what made jesus' death a "sacrifice" in wich he died physically for our sins ... he lives spiritually in heaven (thats why he is not here physically)

 

[ninerbuff]

God makes those people right with himself. But they don't have to do anything in return. Romans 4:6

So you don't have to do anything at all? No worship, no praying, no obeying, no adoring, no humbling? Clear this up.
If you have to do any of those, then the "gift" is NOT FREE. Those would be obligations to your god and any obligation won't put it in the category of FREE. Use the word, COMPLIMENTARY.

 

[ninerbuff]

"that jesus was going to die for our sins, and that resurrection was going to happen, then the question is how is this a "sacrifice" if the end result was jesus being raised from the dead? It's like he never died then."

sacrificial death happens in the physical world, for physical humans. the physical death is what made jesus' death a "sacrifice" in wich he died physically for our sins ... he lives spiritually in heaven (thats why he is not here physically)

So Thomas never touched jesus after he rose from the dead physically?

 

[Orias]

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned...But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:12,8

Ok, so can you please provide me with the point of this scripture?

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. Romans 5:15

When a man works, his pay is not considered a gift. It is owed to him. But things are different with God. He makes evil people right with himself. If people trust in him, their faith is acceptedeven though they do not work. Their faith makes them right with God...God makes those people right with himself. But they don't have to do anything in return. Romans 4:4-6

I.E. no "____ing up" required.

So for example, God made me right with him by making me Satanic? But then I thought we didn't have free will...

That's why I don't answer the door to some of the visitors that come by. A Christian has a duty to tell others about Christ, but if they don't want to hear it they have a duty to let them be. A Christian is not to strive, but to be gentle, there are other religions that convert people at the point of a sword.

Psh, as if the Christians had not crusaded across Europe, slaughtering the Noris folk and pagan believers alike. What of Palastine? The Holy Crusades? Christianity is successful simply because of its intolerance and force of agression to the non-believers.

God makes those people right with himself. But they don't have to do anything in return. Romans 4:6

Again, please provide logic and your interpretation of the meaning behind this. What is the point behind this?

I believe its a spiritual law and it is hard to grasp. Basically we all sinned, the penalty is death so Christ paid the penalty. Its like if we were in the middle of the ocean, no boat, no life preserver. Someone may come and read instructions on how to swim, someone may get in and demonstrate how to swim, but Jesus comes, dives in, gets us in the boat and takes us all the way to dry land and never throws us out before we get there. He died and rose again to pay for our sins and triumph over death that we may live eternally. That is why he is called Saviour. I don't know of anyone else in the world that was able to do that for me.

OK, I fail to see how Jesus died for us.

I fail to see your metaphorical comparision between us being stranded in an ocean and Jesus comming to save us. If Jesus is our Saviour, the one who freed us of sin, then why are we here?

So, did Jesus die and come back to die and get into Heaven for him, or for us?

Could you provide me with a better example of "why Jesus died for our sins."

So far, from the hundereds of "different" Christians I have talked to, none could explain it in a logical manner, that distinguishes why and how Jesus died for us and our sins. All I get in return to my replies is biblical scripture, and not personal opinions.

I am not trying to be a jerk, I am just honestly really confused as to how someone died for our "sins".

Think of me as being Opposition to you (which I am), I am not here to try and relieve you of your position of being Christian, rather I am trying to help you and I better understand why you believe what you do.

 

[Politesse]

that jesus was going to die for our sins, and that resurrection was going to happen, then the question is how is this a "sacrifice" if the end result was jesus being raised from the dead? It's like he never died then.

If I take a bullet for you, but because I am a smart bodyguard, manage to take said bullet in a spot that will easily heal later, is it like I didn't save you at all?

 

[ninerbuff]

If I take a bullet for you, but because I am a smart bodyguard, manage to take said bullet in a spot that will easily heal later, is it like I didn't save you at all?

Who's to say that if you didn't take the bullet I would have died? People get shot all the time and live.

 

[Tre-L]

that jesus was going to die for our sins, and that resurrection was going to happen, then the question is how is this a "sacrifice" if the end result was jesus being raised from the dead? It's like he never died then.

Jesus died because of mans sins .... Not for them. The sacrifice was the life he lived in service to His father and His fellow man. Christianity is tainted because man wants a scapegoat. We are responsible for what we do, and how we live. Jesus showed us the way; it's up to us to follow His lead.

Tre-L

 

[javajo]

So you don't have to do anything at all? No worship, no praying, no obeying, no adoring, no humbling? Clear this up.
If you have to do any of those, then the "gift" is NOT FREE. Those would be obligations to your god and any obligation won't put it in the category of FREE. Use the word, COMPLIMENTARY.

That is correct. It is a totally free gift, one must do nothing in return, it is by grace through faith and not of works lest any man should boast. For salvation we do not have to do any works like you mentioned or it is not free it is a debt owed to us. As we begin to realize God's unconditional love for sinners such as ourselves and the price he paid and the eternal life we now possess through no merit of our own, the Holy Spirit works in us and we grow and mature to where we want to do good works. Many people get saved but never progress to any level of maturity, yet they are still eternally saved.

 

[javajo]

Orias, that is a long post and I don't really do those. All I can say is if you read Romans 4 and 5 it tells of how by Adam sin came on all men, and by Jesus it was paid for. In Hebrew it says that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. There is allusion to that when God killed animals and made clothes for Adam and Eve after they sinned, and in the sacrifices of the OT which could never take away sins. But the sinless lamb without spot, Jesus, was able to do it. Isaiah 53 speaks of it as well. And it is hard for many people, even Christians to understand why and how this is so, but I believe God's Word rightly understood teaches this.

And from Jesus Christ...Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Rev. 1:5

and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1Jn 1:7b

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold...But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 1 Peter 18-19

Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. Hebrews 13:12

In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Col 1:14

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Eph 1:7

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. Romans 5:8-10

 

[ninerbuff]

That is correct. It is a totally free gift, one must do nothing in return, it is by grace through faith and not of works lest any man should boast. For salvation we do not have to do any works like you mentioned or it is not free it is a debt owed to us. As we begin to realize God's unconditional love for sinners such as ourselves and the price he paid and the eternal life we now possess through no merit of our own, the Holy Spirit works in us and we grow and mature to where we want to do good works. Many people get saved but never progress to any level of maturity, yet they are still eternally saved.

Wait, you have to have faith? I thought you need not do anything? To have faith is doing something. To believe in god is doing something. These are CONDITIONS that you need to do in order to receive the "gift" right?

 

[javajo]

Wait, you have to have faith? I thought you need not do anything? To have faith is doing something. To believe in god is doing something. These are CONDITIONS that you need to do in order to receive the "gift" right?

That's right. You must have at some time in your life placed your faith in Christ to receive eternal life. The Bible sets faith apart from works. We are saved by faith in Christ alone apart from the works of the Law. But we must at some point have relied on, believed on, trusted in Christ, that he paid for our sins.

 

[search the scriptures]

"So Thomas never touched jesus after he rose from the dead physically?"

yes he did.... but did jesus still die? shed his blood? death is the requirement for sacraficial death. jesus died.