If I am not a sinner, do I need a savior?

[smokeybear]

Jesus Christ changed mankind's ideas of sin from that of wrongdoing to a feeling of missing-the-mark -- from blame to understanding. His teachings can save us from the prison of self-doubt we have constructed around ourselves.

When an archer misses the target he adjusts his aim and tries again. To criticize and blame himself causes distrust, impotence and is a total waste of energy.

Jesus Christ understood human nature. He knew that judgement and blame injure the spirit whereas love and understanding nourish the spirit.

"Judge not lest you be judged," is not a threat. It is an insightful description of how human nature works. If the arrow points outward, the arrow points inward to the same degree. He who judges and condemns others, judges and condemns himself internally -- whether he knows it or not.

To live free, one must kill the judge in himself.

The Judge

Take the judgment from the Judge,
And he can't do a thing,
No harm to you, and none to me.
He loses all his sting.

Let's snatch the judgment from the Judge.
We'll snatch it bit-by-bit,
Away from me, away from you,
The Judge we will outwit.

And when the Judge is powerless,
We'll quit our push and shove,
And throw our damning to the wind,
So we can learn to love.

-smokeybear

.
​

 

[Watchmen]

Now, hypothetically speaking, how does one know whether or not they are a "sinner", in your religion? Does somebody else have to go "You're a sinner!" or do you simply ask your conscience?

In my religion, someone knows they are by asking his or her conscience. More specifically, we would say the Spirit (or, Holy Ghost) lets us know when we are doing right and we know when we are doing wrong when we don't feel the presence of the Spirit.

In addition, someone else may tell the individual that he or she is a sinner. We believe Jesus organized his Church in a way that gives authority to certain people and, in effect, become judges of others. For example, the bishop - the person "in charge" of a local congregation, is considered a "judge in Israel" and has the authority and likely the discernment to tell a person whether they are sinning or not.

Similarly, parents have authority over their family. Thus, a parent can tell the child that they are sinning.

In short, we can discern for ourselves whether we are sinning or not (after all, sin requires some degree of awareness that what we are doing is wrong or that we are not doing something God would have us do). However, others may righteously tell us so too.

 

[Alceste]

No, but the savior search only for the sinners not God's.

_/\_
Chinu

So those are the only possibilities? Sinners and gods? Not much wiggle room there for ordinary decent people who stand by their principles.

 

[Alceste]

The question here is whether you need a saviour at all?

If you believe in a physical resurrection and/or believe in sin, many Christians believe it is the way to go. For non Christians it is a moot point.

I do not believe in a physical Resurrection, but I do believe that we need to repent our sins, to have them forgiven.
Even if we have never committed a sin in our lives there are still the greater sins of omission.

Sure enough, and I agree, but I prefer to repent to and be forgiven by the affected party. I have never felt the need for a middle man.

 

[Alceste]

Yeah, my conscience is pretty clear.

You're in.

* pours Penumbra a glass of cheap merlot *

 

[Alceste]

According to the Bible everyone will die because of Adam's sin. We will all be ressurected after death to stand and be judged for or sins. There is no mention in the Bible about what would happen to someone who has never sinned (the bible is clear that all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God). It is clear though that rejecting Christ will condemn one to the Lake of Fire. Accepting Him is the ticket to everlasting life. John 3: 17-18

Sin really isn't the determining factor for acceptance or condemnation.

The bible is just a book, Sandy.

 

[Frank Merton]

The bible is just a book, Sandy.

Well of course you are right, but I have no problem thinking of the Bible, along with a number of other writings, as "scripture."

 

[blackout]

scripture.

script-u'r.

your'script

 

[Frank Merton]

scripture.

script-u'r.

your'script

Well, true, but I mean more than that.

 

[chinu]

So those are the only possibilities? Sinners and gods? Not much wiggle room there for ordinary decent people who stand by their principles.

Their principles are inside boundaries
Like: Individual boundary, Family boundary, State boundary, or more than more is Nation boundary,

But such principals which you are talking about, are away from boundaries.

_/\_
Chinu

 

[Danmac]

The bible teaches that the consequences of sin, or better yet, the evidence that someone is a sinner is the fact that they die. So a good litmus test would be, if you're not a sinner you won't die. If you are a sinner you probably will. Since death is the consequence of sin according to scripture.

Romans 6: 23 For the reward of sin is death; but what God freely gives is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord.
(BBE)

 

[Frank Merton]

The bible teaches that the consequences of sin, or better yet, the evidence that someone is a sinner is the fact that they die. So a good litmus test would be, if you're not a sinner you won't die. If you are a sinner you probably will. Since death is the consequence of sin according to scripture.

Romans 6: 23 For the reward of sin is death; but what God freely gives is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord.
(BBE)

You make an ironic point, although of course Christians have a ready rationalization for it. The fact appears to be that whoever wrote this (most scholars think Paul but there is debate) really did believe he would never die a physical death. This is because his teaching was apocalyptic.

 

[Danmac]

You make an ironic point, although of course Christians have a ready rationalization for it. The fact appears to be that whoever wrote this (most scholars think Paul but there is debate) really did believe he would never die a physical death. This is because his teaching was apocalyptic.

Many thought John would not die because of a statement that Jesus made....

John21:20 ¶ Then Peter, turning round, saw the disciple who was dear to Jesus coming after them--the disciple who was resting on his breast at the last meal, and said, Lord, who is it who will be false to you?
21 Seeing him, Peter said to Jesus, What about this man?
22 Jesus said to him, If it is my desire for him to be here till I come back, what is that to you? come yourself after me.
23 So this saying went about among the brothers that this disciple would not undergo death: Jesus, however, did not say that he would not undergo death, but, If it is my desire for him to be here till I come back, what is that to you?

Jesus often spoke in riddles, and as a consequence he was often misunderstood. What some people think, and what they can back up with scriptures are two different things.

 

[notthedalaidrama]

without "sin" the christian religion would be pointless. sin is the building block of this religion, otherwise christ would be pointless!
I am sinless because I am not a christian! I am truly happy! I do feel sorry for those people who lose sleep over this, and I'd like to add when I was 18 and became a christian I never worried about sin, as a part of me(the real me)knew that it was all a part of man's game! after all he has to have many distractions to keep him amused, such as politics, wars, religions, sports and TV to name a few!
I view Life as g_d. We are all g_d because we came from the Source/g_d. Man has to delude himself by thinking he is something unique, and uses religion to endorse this viewpoint. Yet look at what our uniqueness has achieved! To borrow a christian term, Man has turned our planet into Hell! Take Man away from the equation and Earth would be Paradise! Man is a two legged virus!

Namaste,

Lenny

Silence is a language without words - Osho

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I am sinless because I am not a christian...and I'd like to add when I was 18 and became a christian...

To borrow a christian term, Man has turned our planet into Hell! Take Man away from the equation and Earth would be Paradise! Man is a two legged virus!

Wow, you were a Christian then you are not a Christian. You never were a Christian then. A paradise huh? So what happened in Japan never would have happened if man wasn't present?

 

[Danmac]

without "sin" the christian religion would be pointless. sin is the building block of this religion, otherwise christ would be pointless!
I am sinless because I am not a christian! I am truly happy! I do feel sorry for those people who lose sleep over this, and I'd like to add when I was 18 and became a christian I never worried about sin, as a part of me(the real me)knew that it was all a part of man's game! after all he has to have many distractions to keep him amused, such as politics, wars, religions, sports and TV to name a few!
I view Life as g_d. We are all g_d because we came from the Source/g_d. Man has to delude himself by thinking he is something unique, and uses religion to endorse this viewpoint. Yet look at what our uniqueness has achieved! To borrow a christian term, Man has turned our planet into Hell! Take Man away from the equation and Earth would be Paradise! Man is a two legged virus!

Namaste,

Lenny

Silence is a language without words - Osho

My friend the bible makes it very clear. You cannot become a christian until you first recognize you were a sinner. No man goes to the physician that doesn't think he is sick. You may have believed certain aspects of scripture, but heaven and hell are 18 inches apart. You yourself said that "you never worried about sin".

 

[jojo50]

I asked this on another thread and it seems to have stumped the "theologian". I wondered if any other Christian would like to have a go.

i'm responding to your topic , "if iam not a sinner" we ALL are sinners. whether many wants to NOT believe they are. this is why God wants us to always ask for forgiveness of our sins. who do many believe God's word was refering to,the non-believers? why would he direct that to them,when he knows they don't believe in him. so it had to have been for us.which means we ARE sinners.

besides that...we were born from sin. it took Jesus death to make a way for us to gain everlasting life,even if we are still sinners. (Rom.5:19- For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (Adam's sin caused human's to become sinners, Jesus obeying God caused us to become Rigtheous, if we choose). Jesus death didn't make human sin-free.

many say...i'm NOT a sinner anymore,because i was "baptized" an?!...you're still a sinner. why?,because there are times when we sin intentionally, as well as intenionally for instance... someone jokingly say ,"i know i was a queen in another life" it was just someone having fun,but it was a LIE,a lie is a sin. THIS!...is why NO ONE can say..."i'm NOT a sinner. so yes,you,me,we ALL needed a savior, and we got one. even if many don't believe in him...or the one who SENT HIM,(his Father Jehovah). peace

 

[GCOMM]

Of course, not. If I am not a sinner, I do not need a Savior. Period.

However, is there anyone on planet earth that is not a sinner? Rom 3:23 Ps 51:5

God bless

 

[Alceste]

The bible teaches that the consequences of sin, or better yet, the evidence that someone is a sinner is the fact that they die. So a good litmus test would be, if you're not a sinner you won't die. If you are a sinner you probably will. Since death is the consequence of sin according to scripture.

Romans 6: 23 For the reward of sin is death; but what God freely gives is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord.
(BBE)

Let's assume for the sake of argument that the bible is just a book written by fallible men, and that we must use other means in order to determine the truth. Reason, logic, evidence, contemplation and coherent argumentation (good ole fashioned philosophizin').

Setting the bible aside, then, is there any reason at all for an ethical person with a clear conscience to consider themselves a sinner, and to conclude that they need to be "saved"?

 

[Alceste]

without "sin" the christian religion would be pointless. sin is the building block of this religion, otherwise christ would be pointless!
I am sinless because I am not a christian! I am truly happy! I do feel sorry for those people who lose sleep over this, and I'd like to add when I was 18 and became a christian I never worried about sin, as a part of me(the real me)knew that it was all a part of man's game! after all he has to have many distractions to keep him amused, such as politics, wars, religions, sports and TV to name a few!
I view Life as g_d. We are all g_d because we came from the Source/g_d. Man has to delude himself by thinking he is something unique, and uses religion to endorse this viewpoint. Yet look at what our uniqueness has achieved! To borrow a christian term, Man has turned our planet into Hell! Take Man away from the equation and Earth would be Paradise! Man is a two legged virus!

Namaste,

Lenny

Silence is a language without words - Osho

The earthquake in Japan was not caused by man - I think the world would be brutal enough with or without us, but definitely more aesthetically pleasing without.

I tend to define the god concept I find most practical in a similar way, but I use the word qi for it. OTOH, qi is not a deity.