If Jesus Died...

[paarsurrey]

I have no doubt in my mind that it is a historical fact.

It scared Him, though, and he prayed that it would not happen to Him:
Matthew 26:36-44
Gethsemane
36 Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, “Sit here while I go over there and pray.” 37 He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38 Then he said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.”
39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

But one could not quote from history, please.
Jesus cursed death on the Cross is a Hellenist myth, I gather, not a fact of history, please. Right?

Regards

 

[Fallen Prophet]

" that doesn't mean that He did."

Jesus was a Messenger/Prophet to the Jews (not to the gentiles), and not all Judaism people lived in Judea, they were scattered to the Eastern countries, so Jesus decided to go to them secretly and he just did that, I understand, please. That is the reason that Jesus secretly moved to Galilee and asked his disciples to meet him there to bid farewell to them, I gather, very much from the Gospels itself, please. Right?

Regards

No.

 

[Wildswanderer]

If God created the best of all universes then He could have created a different universe where we chose different things. Since God chose to create the best possible universe over the other possible universes then He chose all our actions for us.

Do you believe God could have created a universe where I chose a different occupation?

Yes but you still aren't getting it. You would still freely choose in that universe too. If I create a playground where I know my kid will use the swing each day, does that mean I caused him to play there or did I just let him do what I know he would?

 

[Five Solas]

that is not the same as controlling everything.
Which scripture clearly shows he doesn't do...

Scripture says, God works “all things according to the counsel of his will” (Ephesians 1:11).
God does all things.
we know that God always controls everything? My answer is that we know this because the Bible teaches it. It teaches it by direct statements and by clear and sufficient implication. Let me give you five clusters of texts or kinds of texts.
Also see Lamentations 3:37: “Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it?” In other words, the only explanation the biblical writer sees behind anything being commanded is that the Lord ultimately brought it to pass.

 

[Five Solas]

He saves those he foresaw would believe. If everything is foreordained, that is determinism.

That means God does not save or cause people to come to faith.
That is pure arminiasm

 

[Five Solas]

But one could not quote from history, please.
Jesus cursed death on the Cross is a Hellenist myth, I gather, not a fact of history, please. Right?

Regards

I believe it is a historical fact

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Yes but you still aren't getting it. You would still freely choose in that universe too. If I create a playground where I know my kid will use the swing each day, does that mean I caused him to play there or did I just let him do what I know he would?

This is not the same scenario. If you could have created any playground, one where you knew your kid would never use the swing, then you chose for him/her. Because you chose the playground where you knew your kid would play on the swing over another playground you could have created where you knew your kid would never use the swing. Let me try one more time.

Playground A: Where you know your kid only uses the slide each day.
Playground B: Where you know your kid only uses the swing each day.
Playground C: Where you know your kid only uses the monkey bars each day.
Playground D: Where you know your kid only uses the seesaw each day.

You can create any one of these four playgrounds. Whichever one you choose to create will determine what your kid does because you know the outcome and have other possibilities. Your kid does not have free will in this situation.

This is the same with God and the universe except the possibilities of each universe are almost limitless. Whichever universe God decides to create determines what each of us will do in our lives, giving us no free will.

Do you believe God could have created a universe where I chose a different occupation?

 

[Trailblazer]

If God created the best of all universes then He could have created a different universe where we chose different things. Since God chose to create the best possible universe over the other possible universes then He chose all our actions for us.

If God created the best of all universes then the universe we live in is the best of all universes...

However, I believe that an all-knowing and all-powerful God could have created any universe He wanted to create. For example, God could have created a different universe where we do not have free will to choose anything. God could have created a universe where there is no suffering. I think that is what people should be wondering about. Why did God created a universe where there is the potential for so much suffering and where some people suffering so much more than other people, not because they chose to suffer, but because that was their fate.

God could even have created a universe where there is no death, and since death is the primary cause of suffering, hopefully you can do the math.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe it is a historical fact

Indeed it is.

"do scholars agree that Jesus was crucified?"

The only two events subject to "almost universal assent" are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate. According to New Testament scholar James Dunn, nearly all modern scholars consider the baptism of Jesus and his crucifixion to be historically certain.

Historicity of Jesus - Wikipedia

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

If God created the best of all universes then the universe we live in is the best of all universes...

However, I believe that an all-knowing and all-powerful God could have created any universe He wanted to create.

If this is true then no one has free will as I have been arguing. God chose which universe to create and all that happens in that universe.

For example, God could have created a different universe where we do not have free will to choose anything. God could have created a universe where there is no suffering. I think that is what people should be wondering about. Why did God created a universe where there is the potential for so much suffering and where some people suffering so much more than other people, not because they chose to suffer, but because that was their fate.

God could even have created a universe where there is no death, and since death is the primary cause of suffering, hopefully you can do the math.

The problem of suffering has no bearing on my point.

 

[Trailblazer]

Tb said: I believe that an all-knowing and all-powerful God could have created any universe He wanted to create.

If this is true then no one has free will as I have been arguing. God chose which universe to create and all that happens in that universe.

If this is true why does no one have free will?

 

[paarsurrey]

No.

but one could not give any reasonable argument, as one have none, methinks. Right?

Have a happy day.
Regards

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

If this is true why does no one have free will?

Because God chose which universe to create knowing everything beforehand what would happen in the universe He created.

I posted this above:

Playground A: Where you know your kid only uses the slide each day.
Playground B: Where you know your kid only uses the swing each day.
Playground C: Where you know your kid only uses the monkey bars each day.
Playground D: Where you know your kid only uses the seesaw each day.

You can create any one of these four playgrounds. Whichever one you choose to create will determine what your kid does because you know the outcome and have other possibilities. Your kid does not have free will in this situation.

This is the same with God and the universe except the possibilities of each universe are almost limitless. Whichever universe God decides to create determines what each of us will do in our lives, giving us no free will.

 

[Trailblazer]

Because God chose which universe to create knowing everything beforehand what would happen in the universe He created.

God chose which universe to create knowing everything beforehand what would happen in the universe, but God's foreknowledge is not the cause of things that happen in the universe.
There is no logical connection between knowledge and causation.

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey said: ↑
But one could not quote from history, please.
Jesus cursed death on the Cross is a Hellenist myth, I gather, not a fact of history, please. Right?

I believe it is a historical fact

One's believing does not make things a history.
Right?

Regards

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

God chose which universe to create knowing everything beforehand what would happen in the universe, but God's foreknowledge is not the cause of things that happen in the universe.
There is no logical connection between knowledge and causation.

There is when God could have chose any universe He wanted knowing what would happen. The key is that He could have created any universe.

Can you explain why you disagree with my example?

Playground A: Where you know your kid only uses the slide each day.
Playground B: Where you know your kid only uses the swing each day.
Playground C: Where you know your kid only uses the monkey bars each day.
Playground D: Where you know your kid only uses the seesaw each day.

You can create any one of these four playgrounds. Whichever one you choose to create will determine what your kid does because you know the outcome and have other possibilities. Your kid does not have free will in this situation.

This is the same with God and the universe except the possibilities of each universe are almost limitless. Whichever universe God decides to create determines what each of us will do in our lives, giving us no free will.

 

[paarsurrey]

God works according to a plan. The exact spot is of great significance.
According to various indications scholars often agree that Golgotha and the ancient site of Mount Moriah may be the same place. That is where Abraham almost offered Izak which is a pointer to the Messiah already. It's all part of the planned history of salvation.
In other words, it means that Jesus may have been crucified at or very spot close to Moriah or at its summit.

" Golgotha"

Why die at Golgotha when Jesus could not ascend to heavens right before the eyes of the Jews from Golgotha for which he had promised the Jews to show a sign and he had to secretly move to Galilee, please. What for the secrecy, please? Right?

Regards

 

[Muffled]

1 John 2:2

For all of Man's sins, aren't we all then redeemed?
The payment made in full. Nothing else is being asked of us.

To say God asks anything else from us, isn't this denying the payment Jesus already made?

I believe forgiveness is not absolution.

 

[Muffled]

You don't get a gift if you reject it. My Dad gave me a piece of land but I still had to accept it. Grace isn't forced on anyone.

John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

 

[Muffled]

Yet God does not have to ask to forgive us. He can just do it.

I believe God has to drive this home with some nails or people won't believe it.