If Jesus Died...

[Wildswanderer]

If Paul disagrees with Jesus who are you going to believe, Paul or Jesus?

How Paul changed the course of Christianity

He doesn't.The sheep and the goats are already sheep and goats when they stand in judgment before Christ...the sheep are called “blessed of My Father” which points to them having already been favored by God. The sheep are called to “inherit the kingdom” – we don’t earn or merit an inheritance. The good works are evidences of the presence of saving faith; good works are the consequence of saving faith in Christ.

 

[cataway]

Let me ask you: what does Paul mean by obeying unrighteousness? Paul above any writer in the New testament makes clear that we are saved by faith through grace, not of works.

Matthew 10"22 '' but the one who has endured to the end will be saved.'' so apparently there is some effort being used to prove the worthiness

 

[Wildswanderer]

Matthew 10"22 '' but the one who has endured to the end will be saved.'' so apparently there is some effort being used to prove the worthiness

Yes, one must continue in the faith. And faith will produce fruit but the fruit isn't what saved us.

 

[Five Solas]

Is there a restriction? Jesus could live and die anywhere in the world as do others. Right?

God works according to a plan. The exact spot is of great significance.
According to various indications scholars often agree that Golgotha and the ancient site of Mount Moriah may be the same place. That is where Abraham almost offered Izak which is a pointer to the Messiah already. It's all part of the planned history of salvation.
In other words, it means that Jesus may have been crucified at or very spot close to Moriah or at its summit.

 

[Five Solas]

Even if we stopped sinning it would not save us. We aren't saved by doing good.

That is not what I implied. I did also not say we are then saved because we do good deeds.
What I say is that the wagesof sin is death. We are in need of salvation because we sin - all of us. No one is without sin because no one has a will free enough not to sin.
If we had free will we could choose not not to sin. Free will is only a dream that Arminians dream.

 

[Five Solas]

Matthew 10"22 '' but the one who has endured to the end will be saved.'' so apparently there is some effort being used to prove the worthiness

That is whe God gave us the Holy Spirit - to help and support us to the end. On our own we are not strong enough.

 

[paarsurrey]

God works according to a plan. The exact spot is of great significance.
According to various indications scholars often agree that Golgotha and the ancient site of Mount Moriah may be the same place. That is where Abraham almost offered Izak which is a pointer to the Messiah already. It's all part of the planned history of salvation.
In other words, it means that Jesus may have been crucified at or very spot close to Moriah or at its summit.

A very far fetched and mythical idea, I gather, please. Jesus didn't have to die a cursed death on the Cross as per his own words in the Bible. Right?

Regards

 

[Five Solas]

A very far fetched and mythical idea

I have no doubt in my mind that it is a historical fact.

It scared Him, though, and he prayed that it would not happen to Him:
Matthew 26:36-44
Gethsemane
36 Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, “Sit here while I go over there and pray.” 37 He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38 Then he said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.”
39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

 

[Wildswanderer]

That is not what I implied. I did also not say we are then saved because we do good deeds.
What I say is that the wagesof sin is death. We are in need of salvation because we sin - all of us. No one is without sin because no one has a will free enough not to sin.
If we had free will we could choose not not to sin. Free will is only a dream that Arminians dream.

If we don't have free will we can't be blamed for sinning. So God would be rejecting people for something they have no choice in. That makes God unjust.

 

[Five Solas]

If we don't have free will we can't be blamed for sinning. So God would be rejecting people for something they have no choice in. That makes God unjust.

I think you have difficulty understanding grace and the need for grace. We need salvation because there really is no other option. If you have free will you CAN choose to sin no more. That would have been another option.
The nature of humanity is to sin like the nature of s fish is to live in water. We all sin. We all need salvation. We are guilty even if we cannot help ourselves.
We need grace.

 

[Wildswanderer]

I think you have difficulty understanding grace and the need for grace. We need salvation because there really is no other option. If you have free will you CAN choose to sin no more. That would have been another option.
The nature of humanity is to sin like the nature of s fish is to live in water. We all sin. We all need salvation. We are guilty even if we cannot help ourselves.
We need grace.

Of course we do. But we could not choose God without free will.
Determinism is a pagan concept that some people have forced into Christianity.

 

[Five Solas]

Of course we do. But we could not choose God without free will.
Determinism is a pagan concept that some people have forced into Christianity.

Of course we do. But we could not choose God without free will.
Determinism is a pagan concept that some people have forced into Christianity.

I did not mention determinism.
The Bible is clear:
Acts 2:23 Peter, on the day of Pentecost says, “This Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.”
God has planned it all.
And
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, Ephesians 1:11.
The key word is predestined.
The doctrine of foreordination - that God plans everything which happens in eternity past, is clearly biblical.
Ephesians 1:4
“He chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love: having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will”
Our salvation is foreordained. God saves. He saves whomever He wants to save. He made that choice before he created the world.
Our fallible will is not stronger that that of God.

 

[Five Solas]

Of course we do. But we could not choose God without free will.
Determinism is a pagan concept that some people have forced into Christianity.

Your view sounds a bit like Deism:- There is a God who made the world but does not interact with it. So, humans still posses enough goodness to make the right choice.
So, God will watch how people carry on and how some make bad choices and some good choices without interfering.
That god is not in charge.
The biblical God has a plan and He is successfully achieving all He set out to do.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Your view sounds a bit like Deism:- There is a God who made the world but does not interact with it. So, humans still posses enough goodness to make the right choice.
So, God will watch how people carry on and how some make bad choices and some good choices without interfering.
That god is not in charge.
The biblical God has a plan and He is successfully achieving all He set out to do.

No, of course he interacts with the world... that is not the same as controlling everything.
Which scripture clearly shows he doesn't do... otherwise I wonder why he ever gets ticked off at sin.

 

[Wildswanderer]

I did not mention determinism.
The Bible is clear:
Acts 2:23 Peter, on the day of Pentecost says, “This Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.”
God has planned it all.
And
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, Ephesians 1:11.
The key word is predestined.
The doctrine of foreordination - that God plans everything which happens in eternity past, is clearly biblical.
Ephesians 1:4
“He chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love: having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will”
Our salvation is foreordained. God saves. He saves whomever He wants to save. He made that choice before he created the world.
Our fallible will is not stronger that that of God.

He saves those he foresaw would believe. If everything is foreordained, that is determinism.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Is there a restriction?

Of course. There is a literal restriction.

Everyone who dies - so literally everyone - is restricted to die in only one place at one time.

A person cannot die in multiple places at multiple times.

Jesus could live and die anywhere in the world as do others. Right?

Well - no.

People live where they live, and they die where they die.

If you don't believe in the Biblical record - that's fine - but that doesn't mean Jesus could live anywhere and die anywhere.

For example - no one in Israel would have known about Jesus if he had been born in Mesoamerica - right?

All available information we have on the Lord Jesus Christ points to Him living and dying in Israel.

But he could not die a cursed death on the Cross if he was truthful Messenger/Prophet of G-d. Right?

Why do you assume that the cross is "cursed" or that dying by the cross is a "cursed death"?

Why do you assume that a person dying upon the cross cannot be a truthful Messenger/Prophet of God?

I believe that He was more than a prophet - but the Son of God in the flesh - the literal God of Israel.

Regards

Same.

 

[paarsurrey]

Of course. There is a literal restriction.

Everyone who dies - so literally everyone - is restricted to die in only one place at one time.

A person cannot die in multiple places at multiple times.

Well - no.

People live where they live, and they die where they die.

If you don't believe in the Biblical record - that's fine - but that doesn't mean Jesus could live anywhere and die anywhere.

For example - no one in Israel would have known about Jesus if he had been born in Mesoamerica - right?

All available information we have on the Lord Jesus Christ points to Him living and dying in Israel.

Why do you assume that the cross is "cursed" or that dying by the cross is a "cursed death"?

Why do you assume that a person dying upon the cross cannot be a truthful Messenger/Prophet of God?

I believe that He was more than a prophet - but the Son of God in the flesh - the literal God of Israel.

Same.

But why Jesus was to die in Judea or specifically at Golgotha, he could go out from Judea and out of the Roman Empire when he did not die a cursed death on the Cross and his bones were not broken, where ever in the world his Jewish people lived as he was a Messenger/Prophet of the Jews, please? Right?

Regards

 

[Fallen Prophet]

But why Jesus was to die in Judea, he could go out from Judea and out of the Roman Empire where ever in the world his Jewish people lived as he was a Messenger/Prophet of the Jews, please. Right?

Regards

He could have done any number of things - that doesn't mean that He did.

You claimed that He did not ide on the cross - but the only evidence you offer for this claim is that He was free to choose not to die on the cross?

You understand how ridiculous that is - right?

Could you imagine a lawyer trying to argue that his client was not at that the scene of a crime at the time of the "incident" by saying,

"He didn't have to be there. He could have gone down the street. Out of town. Wherever his friends and family were."

That is just a meaningless thing to say.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

I understand it fine...I just think you are wrong.
The other universe's all exist as possibilities. The reason they aren't real is because we chose certain things in this one. Molinism says God created the best of all possible universes. I came close to being a open theist but couldn't do it. I think understanding that time isn't really a thing for God makes this easier to understand.

If God created the best of all universes then He could have created a different universe where we chose different things. Since God chose to create the best possible universe over the other possible universes then He chose all our actions for us.

Do you believe God could have created a universe where I chose a different occupation?

 

[paarsurrey]

He could have done any number of things - that doesn't mean that He did.

You claimed that He did not ide on the cross - but the only evidence you offer for this claim is that He was free to choose not to die on the cross?

You understand how ridiculous that is - right?

Could you imagine a lawyer trying to argue that his client was not at that the scene of a crime at the time of the "incident" by saying,

"He didn't have to be there. He could have gone down the street. Out of town. Wherever his friends and family were."

That is just a meaningless thing to say.

" that doesn't mean that He did."

Jesus was a Messenger/Prophet to the Jews (not to the gentiles), and not all Judaism people lived in Judea, they were scattered to the Eastern countries, so Jesus decided to go to them secretly and he just did that, I understand, please. That is the reason that Jesus secretly moved to Galilee and asked his disciples to meet him there to bid farewell to them, I gather, very much from the Gospels itself, please. Right?

Regards