If Jesus Died...

[Trailblazer]

There is no free will if God exists. God could have created any universe He wanted. A universe where you did not believe or believed. So your belief is not your choice.

Humans have free will because God gave humans free will. Whether God could have done anything He wanted to do is irrelevant to the point.
God could have created a world of believers and nonbelievers by causing us to believe or disbeliever but then we would be mere puppets on a string.

But just because we have free will that dos not mean we are free to choose anything we might want to choose. Belief is not really a choice, we either see evidence for the belief or we do not. We are free to look at the evidence but if we are not convinced by the evidence then we will not believe.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Do you have any verses to back up that assertion?

This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

 

[Trailblazer]

resurrection is not contradiction of death.

it is if you are brought back to life.

 

[Wildswanderer]

This is the point. God knew what I would choose in each universe. He chose one universe over all others so He chose for me.

Look into molinism...this has been hashed out centuries ago.

 

[Trailblazer]

Death however is permanent.

Yes, physical death is permanent, except in story books.

 

[Wildswanderer]

It's like an ant coming up with all kinds of weird notions of me, based on ant experience of the world. I'd be fine with it if Christians didn't assert so many detailed attributes of God on a daily basis.

We are like ants in comparison to God, obviously. However God did, in fact, become like us to save us. We can actually understand quite a lot by studying Jesus. And BTW, I didn't say we couldn't understand God's motives, I said God doesn't operate how the other poster said he should.

 

[Trailblazer]

(This is my first post here and is something of a test).

Welcome aboard.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Yes, physical death is permanent, except in story books.

Definitely.

And for sake of argument if resurrection was even remotely possible, and Jesus rose from the dead, and was alive again, where does the sacrifice lay with all of that?

I would say it can't be a sacrifice making it a contradiction going both ways with the theology.

 

[paarsurrey]

Definitely.

And for sake of argument if resurrection was even remotely possible, and Jesus rose from the dead, and was alive again, where does the sacrifice lay with all of that?

I would say it can't be a sacrifice making it a contradiction going both ways with the theology.

" and Jesus rose from the dead "

It (the above colored in magenta) is a Pauline Hellenistic idea.

Otherwise it means Jesus recovered from his wounds and was able to journey to Galilee as he told his disciples. Right?

Regards

 

[Trailblazer]

And for sake of argument if resurrection was even remotely possible, and Jesus rose from the dead, and was alive again, where does the sacrifice lay with all of that?

I would say it can't be a sacrifice making it a contradiction going both ways with the theology.

There would be no sacrifice if Jesus rose from the dead so Christians are just shooting themselves in the foot when they insist that Jesus rose.

 

[Twilight Hue]

There would be no sacrifice if Jesus rose from the dead so Christians are just shooting themselves in the foot when they insist that Jesus rose.

I know. It's a rather crazy notion to think a sacrifice is something you will get back afterwards.

But when your deep in that state of belief, it all makes sense , and you cannot see the flaws and contradictions unless you take off the rose colored glasses in that fantasy world.

 

[Trailblazer]

I know. It's a rather crazy notion to think a sacrifice is something you will get back afterwards.

But when your deep in that state of belief, it all makes sense , and you cannot see the flaws and contradictions unless you take off the rose colored glasses in that fantasy world.

You might say that Christians want to have their cake and eat it too.
They want the cross sacrifice so they can believed they are saved but they also want the resurrection so they can believe that Jesus is still alive in the same body and will return someday.

 

[Brickjectivity]

1 John 2:2

For all of Man's sins, aren't we all then redeemed?
The payment made in full. Nothing else is being asked of us.

To say God asks anything else from us, isn't this denying the payment Jesus already made?

Everything hinges upon forgiving other people. I'll post a couple of verses about it.

• [Mat 5:22 NIV] 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
  
• [Mat 6:14 NIV] 14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
• [Mat 9:6 NIV] 6 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins." ....
  
• [Luk 17:3-4 NIV] 3 So watch yourselves. "If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. 4 Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying 'I repent,' you must forgive them."
• [Jhn 20:23 NIV] 23 If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

You see that last verse. How is it possible that a person can forgive sins done by another? It has to do with the fact that sins only affect people. Its people that won't forgive things, not God. You can get forgiveness from God, yet the people you've offended won't eat with you. How can there be peace on earth, good will towards men unless people are willing to forgive?

The 'Propitiation' for sin has to do with getting people to forgive one another. Its not magic. Its about people making a decision.

 

[YoursTrue]

I wonder what we can trade to gain a forgiveness for war and torture camps?

We?

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

and Baha'is, since we believe that Jesus died for ALL our sins.

And what about people that believe that the changes of nature consistent as the ability for something to become divine? I believe in God. I don't read your God in the scriptures your prophets write. I experience it by taking long walks, talking to my friends and family and being overall half-way decent or better with just about anyone I come in contact with. If you are proven to be correct rather than my "change" God will I experience this "Baha'i" God for myself? Will I have time to redeem myself before this God of change God becomes nothing and I am left with nothing but your conception of God and myself? Or am I supposed to read all these scriptures and become close to your "God of The Omniverse" God before I enter the next life?

In other words, if my conception of God is proven incorrect, do I still have the ability to redeem myself?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Humans have free will because God gave humans free will. Whether God could have done anything He wanted to do is irrelevant to the point.
God could have created a world of believers and nonbelievers by causing us to believe or disbeliever but then we would be mere puppets on a string.

But just because we have free will that dos not mean we are free to choose anything we might want to choose. Belief is not really a choice, we either see evidence for the belief or we do not. We are free to look at the evidence but if we are not convinced by the evidence then we will not believe.

I respectfully say that you do not fully understand the argument.

Even if we have free will in this universe he could have made a universe where our free will would have made a different decision. And He would know the outcome of both universes. So He chose this universe, we had no say.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Look into molinism...this has been hashed out centuries ago.

"Middleknowledge" does not solve the problem. God still knows the outcome and chose this universe. If you disagree then please explain how Molinism solves this problem.

 

[cataway]

There would be no sacrifice if Jesus rose from the dead so Christians are just shooting themselves in the foot when they insist that Jesus rose.

if you owed someone some money and you paid them in full . then that person returned all the money to you . is your debt still paid in full ?
Jesus did die he paid the price asked for . because of this his God returned his life force to him

 

[Wildswanderer]

"Middleknowledge" does not solve the problem. God still knows the outcome and chose this universe. If you disagree then please explain how Molinism solves this problem.

Freedom can be understood in the first place insofar as it is opposed to coercion. . . . But freedom can also be understood insofar as it is opposed to a necessity. Thus an agent is called free who, with all the prerequisites for action taken into account, is able to act and able not to act, or is able to do something in such a way that s/ he is also able to do some contrary thing.” In modern terminology, Molina strongly advocated the doctrine of libertarian freedom. When applied to humans, it denotes their unconstrained ability to choose between opposites in both the physical and spiritual realms. For Molina, no circumstances exist that could determine a person’s choices, and if a person chooses to do a particular thing, she or he could have done otherwise or could have refrained from acting at all.” (MacGregor, Kirk R.. Luis de Molina: The Life and Theology of the Founder of Middle Knowledge, Zondervan. Kindle Edition, p. 49-50).

I don't understand what you have a problem with. Are you still confusing knowing with causation?

 

[Trailblazer]

I respectfully say that you do not fully understand the argument.

Even if we have free will in this universe he could have made a universe where our free will would have made a different decision. And He would know the outcome of both universes. So He chose this universe, we had no say.

I don't think you fully understand my position. God chose to create this universe but God did not choose to make our decisions for us. God gave us free will to make our own decisions.

The fact that God knows the outcome of WHATEVER decision we make is not what determines the outcome. God knows everything that will ever happen but God's foreknowledge is not what causes our actions.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150