If Jesus Died...

[Trailblazer]

if you owed someone some money and you paid them in full . then that person returned all the money to you . is your debt still paid in full ?
Jesus did die he paid the price asked for . because of this his God returned his life force to him

If someone paid a person a debt that was owed to them and then the person gave the money back, the debt was still paid. Since the payer did not ask for the money back, it could be considered a gift to the person who owed the debt.

Who asked Jesus to pay a price for our sins? I do not believe that God asked Him but rather Jesus chose to sacrifice His life for our sins. There would be no reason for Jesus to come back to life after He gave His life. The resurrection is a story men wrote decades after Jesus died and it does not fit in with the mission of Jesus.

 

[Trailblazer]

And what about people that believe that the changes of nature consistent as the ability for something to become divine? I believe in God. I don't read your God in the scriptures your prophets write. I experience it by taking long walks, talking to my friends and family and being overall half-way decent or better with just about anyone I come in contact with.

I do not see anything wrong with that. Everyone experiences God in different ways. I feel closest to God while taking long walks and being close to animals and nature. The value I see in my scriptures is that it informs me of the attributes and what God wills for me and humanity.

If you are proven to be correct rather than my "change" God will I experience this "Baha'i" God for myself? Will I have time to redeem myself before this God of change God becomes nothing and I am left with nothing but your conception of God and myself? Or am I supposed to read all these scriptures and become close to your "God of The Omniverse" God before I enter the next life?

I am not sure what you mean by a "change" God. Some Baha'is experience God by reading the scriptures and saying the prayers but that is not true for everyone. However, since I am a Baha'i I would suggest you at least give the Baha'i scriptures a chance.

In other words, if my conception of God is proven incorrect, do I still have the ability to redeem myself?

I do not believe in redemption and being 'saved' because I am not a Christian. I cannot say what will happen if you hold to your conception and end up being incorrect, only God knows that. All I can tell you is what Baha'u'llah wrote about the fate of a true believer in the one true God, but as I recall you don't like me posting scripture quotes.

 

[cataway]

If someone paid a person a debt that was owed to them and then the person gave the money back, the debt was still paid. Since the payer did not ask for the money back, it could be considered a gift to the person who owed the debt.

Who asked Jesus to pay a price for our sins? I do not believe that God asked Him but rather Jesus chose to sacrifice His life for our sins. There would be no reason for Jesus to come back to life after He gave His life. The resurrection is a story men wrote decades after Jesus died and it does not fit in with the mission of Jesus.

and what would you know of the mission of Jesus?

 

[Trailblazer]

and what would you know of the mission of Jesus?

I know what Baha'u'llah wrote.

“That which thou hast heard concerning Abraham, the Friend of the All-Merciful, is the truth, and no doubt is there about it. The Voice of God commanded Him to offer up Ishmael as a sacrifice, so that His steadfastness in the Faith of God and His detachment from all else but Him may be demonstrated unto men. The purpose of God, moreover, was to sacrifice him as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the peoples of the earth. This same honor, Jesus, the Son of Mary, besought the one true God, exalted be His name and glory, to confer upon Him.”
Gleanings, pp. 75-76

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things...... Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.” Gleanings, pp. 85-86

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

I don't think you fully understand my position. God chose to create this universe but God did not choose to make our decisions for us. God gave us free will to make our own decisions.

The fact that God knows the outcome of WHATEVER decision we make is not what determines the outcome. God knows everything that will ever happen but God's foreknowledge is not what causes our actions.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

Well let me ask this; Could God have created any universe He wanted with any outcome He wanted or did He have to create this universe we live in?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Freedom can be understood in the first place insofar as it is opposed to coercion. . . . But freedom can also be understood insofar as it is opposed to a necessity. Thus an agent is called free who, with all the prerequisites for action taken into account, is able to act and able not to act, or is able to do something in such a way that s/ he is also able to do some contrary thing.” In modern terminology, Molina strongly advocated the doctrine of libertarian freedom. When applied to humans, it denotes their unconstrained ability to choose between opposites in both the physical and spiritual realms. For Molina, no circumstances exist that could determine a person’s choices, and if a person chooses to do a particular thing, she or he could have done otherwise or could have refrained from acting at all.” (MacGregor, Kirk R.. Luis de Molina: The Life and Theology of the Founder of Middle Knowledge, Zondervan. Kindle Edition, p. 49-50).

I don't understand what you have a problem with. Are you still confusing knowing with causation?

Ok I asked Trailblazer this and I will ask you; Could God have created any universe He wanted with any outcome He wanted or did He have to create this universe we live in?

 

[viole]

You don't get a gift if you reject it. My Dad gave me a piece of land but I still had to accept it. Grace isn't forced on anyone.

That is not a gift. It is an offer you cannot refuse. Not the same thing.

ciO

- fiole

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

if you owed someone some money and you paid them in full . then that person returned all the money to you . is your debt still paid in full ?
Jesus did die he paid the price asked for . because of this his God returned his life force to him

If God has 0 dollars because you borrowed 100 dollars, forgiving you still keeps His account at 0.

 

[KW]

1 John 2:2

For all of Man's sins, aren't we all then redeemed?
The payment made in full. Nothing else is being asked of us.

To say God asks anything else from us, isn't this denying the payment Jesus already made?

No. Jesus enabled us to cooperate with God.

He doesn't force us to.

What separates the sheep from the goats in Matt 25?

 

[Wildswanderer]

That is not a gift. It is an offer you cannot refuse. Not the same thing.

ciO

- fiole

Which one? Neither were forced, so both were gifts.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Ok I asked Trailblazer this and I will ask you; Could God have created any universe He wanted with any outcome He wanted or did He have to create this universe we live in?

Who knows? I would say he could only create what is in line with his character. Regardless, God creating this universe because of knowing what I would be doesn't mean I didn't make a real choice. That only works if he decides without knowing or doesn't take that into consideration.
This is just the old Arminian versus Calvinism debate... I'm sure I participated in hundreds of them.

 

[Semmelweis Reflex]

1 John 2:2

For all of Man's sins, aren't we all then redeemed?
The payment made in full. Nothing else is being asked of us.

To say God asks anything else from us, isn't this denying the payment Jesus already made?

First you have to know what the payment is. The wages of sin are death. Once we die, then it is paid in full. (Romans 6:7) Then there is the possibility of being redeemed. Resurrection. Those who reject that undeserved kindness have, in effect, judged themselves. So, among the many things Jesus did, he showed us our true potential, without sin, and he showed us it was possible to achieve that. If that is our goal. If not then we reject it.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Who knows? I would say he could only create what is in line with his character. Regardless, God creating this universe because of knowing what I would be doesn't mean I didn't make a real choice. That only works if he decides without knowing or doesn't take that into consideration.
This is just the old Arminian versus Calvinism debate... I'm sure I participated in hundreds of them.

Then you are not understanding what I am saying. It could be my fault.

If God could have created any universe He wanted and created this one then you don't have free will.

Lets say God created universe A where God knew that I would be a painter. There is a universe B He could have created where God knew I would became a welder. God chose to create universe A so me becoming a painter was determined by God not me. The problem is not His foreknowledge, it is the possibility of other universes He could have created. Unless you think God could only have created this universe this is a problem for free will. But then God would not be the first cause.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well let me ask this; Could God have created any universe He wanted with any outcome He wanted or did He have to create this universe we live in?

God could have created any universe He wanted with any outcome He wanted. He did not have to create this universe we live in.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

God could have created any universe He wanted with any outcome He wanted. He did not have to create this universe we live in.

Right, so God chose this universe so no one here has free will to choose because God chose this universe knowing everything that would happen in it. He chose for us.

 

[Trailblazer]

Right, so God chose this universe so no one here has free will to choose because God chose this universe knowing everything that would happen in it. He chose for us.

God chose to create humans with free will...
God knew what we would choose with our free will because God is all-knowing, but God does not choose for us.
There is no logical connection between knowing what will happen and causing it to happen.
An astronomer by mathematical calculations knows when an eclipse will occur in the future but the astronomer does not cause the eclipse to take place.

 

[Five Solas]

1 John 2:2

For all of Man's sins, aren't we all then redeemed?
The payment made in full. Nothing else is being asked of us.

To say God asks anything else from us, isn't this denying the payment Jesus already made?

It is s legitimate question.
May I ask, did God really die for all people? Or only those who belong to Him?

 

[Five Solas]

Because he chooses to allow free will.

If your will is so free, then use your free will and stop sinning. If you can't your will is not free...

 

[Five Solas]

You don't appear to require a reason for that sort of acceptance -

There is a good reason...

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

God chose to create humans with free will...
God knew what we would choose with our free will because God is all-knowing, but God does not choose for us.
There is no logical connection between knowing what will happen and causing it to happen.
An astronomer by mathematical calculations knows when an eclipse will occur in the future but the astronomer does not cause the eclipse to take place.

This is not what I am talking about. The best I can explain it is:

If God can create any universe he wants with any outcomes He desires and,
If God knows what is going to happen in each universe before He creates it,
Then whatever happens in the universe He actually creates is determined by His choice not ours.

For example if God could have created a universe where someone chose to work as a painter over a welder but in another universe He could have created the same person chose to be a welder instead of a painter then God chose the persons profession not that person. With an unlimited number of universes and outcomes God could choose from, leads to the conclusion that God chose everything about this universe and not people.

Anyway, have a good weekend.