If Jesus Died...

[Ebionite]

Sin is a conscious choice. Jesus revealed a fair, mature Loving God.

He endorsed the law that spoke of unintentional sin.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matthew 5:18

When a ruler hath sinned, and done [somewhat] through ignorance [against] any of the commandments of YHWH his Elah [concerning things] which should not be done, and is guilty;
Or if his sin, wherein he hath sinned, come to his knowledge; he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a male without blemish:
And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the goat, and kill it in the place where they kill the burnt offering before YHWH: it [is] a sin offering.
Leviticus 4:22-24

 

[Colt]

He endorsed the law that spoke of unintentional sin.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matthew 5:18

When a ruler hath sinned, and done [somewhat] through ignorance [against] any of the commandments of YHWH his Elah [concerning things] which should not be done, and is guilty;
Or if his sin, wherein he hath sinned, come to his knowledge; he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a male without blemish:
And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the goat, and kill it in the place where they kill the burnt offering before YHWH: it [is] a sin offering.
Leviticus 4:22-24

Priest class invented the lucrative rules but then claimed God did.

It’s true, the laws are still in the books!

 

[Ebionite]

Priest class invented the lucrative rules but then claimed God did.

That sounds like a conspiracy theory to me.

 

[Dimi95]

The author of Acts is expressing an opinion about the erroneous “original sin doctrine”.

***The Genesis scriptures say Eve committed the sin first and death came specifically to Eve and Adam, NOT the entire world!

***The “Crafty Beast was ALREADY fallen, already evil, already sinful and working against Gods plan for the Pair. The previously populated earth had already fallen, Cain feared people outside the 2nd garden.

************Death or translation was normal and planned for humans, or else the world would be quite crowded!

Where does it say in Genesis before the Fall that Adam would die?
So we can assume according to Scripture that we inheritit death as consequence of the sin of Adam and Eve , not guilty of that sin.
We also inherit the essence to sin,or better - genetic inheritance.

In Romans and Acts, he is just making difference between Jesus and man,that includes all prophets.

 

[Ebionite]

Where does it say in Genesis before the Fall that Adam would die?

The doctrine of the Fall has no meaning in Genesis, they are different religious systems.

 

[Colt]

That sounds like a conspiracy theory to me.

Like conspiring to kill the son of God? Holy men who run religious institutions are a lot like politicians.

 

[blü 2]

1 John 2:2

For all of Man's sins, aren't we all then redeemed?
The payment made in full. Nothing else is being asked of us.

To say God asks anything else from us, isn't this denying the payment Jesus already made?

It's far from clear to me why, with an omnipotent God in charge, anyone had to die ─ anyone had to do anything, indeed ─ to effect God's intentions.

One snap of those omnipotent fingers and *zing!* ─ two problems are solved at once!

The first problem solved is avoiding the abominable cruelty of death by crucifixion, even though Jesus was of course not just a volunteer but a designer of his own death.

(As part of that first problem, the cross, even without the image of a tortured Jesus, is a repugnant symbol. It's also misleading, since this is the only life you're going to get ─ or if that's wrong, the only meaningful life you're going to get, the only one with your humanity in it.)

The second problem solved is that people who didn't live in the Roman empire and didn't get a chance to sign up until one or two thousand years had gone by are instead automatically signed up from the instant God snaps those fingers.

 

[Ebionite]

Like conspiring to kill the son of God? Holy men who run religious institutions are a lot like politicians.

Technically it wasn't a conspiracy because of the perceived threat.

And one of them, [named] Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.
John 11:49-53

 

[Ebionite]

It's far from clear to me why, with an omnipotent God in charge, anyone had to die ─ anyone had to do anything, indeed ─ to effect God's intentions.

The doctrine of omnipotence is a crock, IMO, but that doesn't affect your point. The idea of a just deity and merciful deity would intend that an innocent man be tortured to death is a repugnant one, but clearly not a problem for the supporters of an empire that was accustomed to committing acts of barbarity.

 

[Colt]

Where does it say in Genesis before the Fall that Adam would die?
So we can assume according to Scripture that we inheritit death as consequence of the sin of Adam and Eve , not guilty of that sin.
We also inherit the essence to sin,or better - genetic inheritance.

In Romans and Acts, he is just making difference between Jesus and man,that includes all prophets.

Adam and Eve had immortality status, they could use the “tree of life” and live continuously but when they defaulted they were subject to the human fate. While they lived a long time after their sin, their bodies eventually died.

When the Israelites were creating their story of origins they used Mesopotamian religious lore concerning the ancient story of Adam, a fallen Son of God. They didn’t know any better, they just assumed Adam was the first human and that creation must have begun just prior to that.

True, we are born into a rebellious world, but Sin is a knowing choice, not inheriting someone else’s guilt. Jesus never taught original sin doctrine.

 

[Colt]

Technically it wasn't a conspiracy because of the perceived threat.

And one of them, [named] Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.
John 11:49-53

Seems to me they wanted to get rid of Jesus, constantly harassed him and needed false witnesses in a rushed, early morning sham trial to impose the death penalty. The threat was to the religious pride of Judaism and the lucrative Temple sacrificial system.

 

[nPeace]

Jesus didn't use all of the scriptures.

His great exhortation, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” he took from the Scripture which reads: “You shall not take vengeance against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Because there are tares amongst the wheat.

It would be nice if you thought of Jesus' words as great, but since you don't believe what Jesus said, here, and here, , and here, ,and hundreds of other places, I don't know why what Jesus said matters to you.
Maybe you will explain.

Didn't Jesus also say this...
(Matthew 7:15) . . .“Be on the watch for the false prophets who come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves.

Doesn't that fit all those who reject the parts in scripture that do not fit what they believe?
Aren't those the tares?

 

[nPeace]

If you read carefully Hebrews 11 you will note :

"By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God."

If you continue after this verse you will see also the names of : Abel , Noah , Abraham , Sarah etc.

Hebrews 11:39 reads:
"These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect."

none of them received what had been promised
Seems pretty straightforward.

 

[Colt]

It would be nice if you thought of Jesus' words as great, but since you don't believe what Jesus said, here, and here, , and here, ,and hundreds of other places, I don't know why what Jesus said matters to you.
Maybe you will explain.

Didn't Jesus also say this...
(Matthew 7:15) . . .“Be on the watch for the false prophets who come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves.

Doesn't that fit all those who reject the parts in scripture that do not fit what they believe?
Aren't those the tares?

Jesus warned agains false prophets not true revelations.

Quoting true parts of scripture didn’t mean Jesus endorsed the false parts of scripture. After Jesus revealed the true God to mankind we can see that the Israelites were in some ways false prophets!

 

[nPeace]

That sounds like a conspiracy theory to me.

It sounds like a rebellion to me.

 

[nPeace]

Where does it say in Genesis before the Fall that Adam would die?

Good point. Only if Adam sinned, would he die, according to Genesis 2:17.

 

[Colt]

none of them received what had been promised
Seems pretty straightforward.

Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years. 24Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

One of the consequences of the Jehovah sects creating their own doctrine and rewriting parts of the Bible is that they had to go back and horribly reinterpret parts of the Bible that they claim to believe.

 

[nPeace]

It's far from clear to me why, with an omnipotent God in charge, anyone had to die ─ anyone had to do anything, indeed ─ to effect God's intentions.

One snap of those omnipotent fingers and *zing!* ─ two problems are solved at once!

The first problem solved is avoiding the abominable cruelty of death by crucifixion, even though Jesus was of course not just a volunteer but a designer of his own death.

(As part of that first problem, the cross, even without the image of a tortured Jesus, is a repugnant symbol. It's also misleading, since this is the only life you're going to get ─ or if that's wrong, the only meaningful life you're going to get, the only one with your humanity in it.)

The second problem solved is that people who didn't live in the Roman empire and didn't get a chance to sign up until one or two thousand years had gone by are instead automatically signed up from the instant God snaps those fingers.

It's not as simple as that blu. That would be equivalent to God snapping his fingers, and becoming Satan.
For God to be righteous, thee must be a standard of righteousness, and God abides by that standard.
He cannot snap his fingers, and go against it. God doesn't do the finger snapping thing though.

 

[Colt]

Good point. Only if Adam sinned, would he die, according to Genesis 2:17.

Death for the 2 super mortals, sons of God not all mankind. That explains the many ancient skeletons that we dig up that are hundreds of thousands of yours older than Adam.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Sin is a state of deliberate, conscious disloyalty and separation from deity.

You can see why your fellow theists don't like that interpretation. It means atheists aren't sinners, but that they might be.

Priest class invented the lucrative rules but then claimed God did.

That's my argument for a calendar appearing in the Genesis creation myths and defining the work week (six days of work) and weekend (one day of rest). it serves the priesthood once the nomads and their travelling holy men settled and formed large cities, the faithful now had to come to them. These priests were no longer working, and so, needed to be supported, which meant people needing to take a day away from the flocks and working the shops in bazaars to travel with their families to and from the cental synagogue, which included the able-bodied, which was no doubt considered sin in nomadic days. Everybody that could worked every day. This day of rest, inspired by economic considerations, was given divine imprimatur by claiming that God did that, and by inventing a commandment ordering it.

The idea of a just deity and merciful deity would intend that an innocent man be tortured to death is a repugnant one, but clearly not a problem for the supporters of an empire that was accustomed to committing acts of barbarity.

Agreed. Repugnant indeed, but also clearly not a problem for modern day Christians, and in fact, helps define the Christian concept of love. That sacrifice is described as the greatest act of love possible. Throw in that a perfectly loving god builds torture pits and stocks them with demons to torment people, and it isn't hard to see why many Christians claim that their hateful bigotries can be called hating the sin but loving the sinner.