If Jesus isn't the only way to come to God...

[Hockeycowboy]

You're preaching.
Can you back any of this up with objective evidence? Why is your Buible any more authoritative than The Hobbit?

You’re asking questions. How can I not?

The Hobbit has no information on the subject.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Did it? People have got wiser now. Some, I am not talking of 19th Century uneducated Iranians.

How have people gotten wiser?

Humans have accumulated more (scientific) knowledge, yes.

Family life is falling / has fallen apart for many.
There’s more mental illnesses, emotional distress, and STD’s than ever before.

Greed and selfishness, traits the Bible condemns, have ruined & are ruining not only relationships, but now the planet.

 

[Trailblazer]

The idea that you, a human, need an intermediary to engage with God, is found only with the Jesus of Paul an and we can only know about God through Him.d the Jesus of John.

I did not know about those distinctions exist in the Bible as I am not proficient with the Bible like you are.

It is a Baha'i belief that only through an intermediary can we know anything about God or God's will for man.
We believe that there is no way we can relate to God directly, only through the intermediary, who is the Messenger of God.

 

[rocala]

Keep to your faith and let the Christians believe what they believe. You have problems with every religion of the world.

What a strange thing to say in a debate section.

Bahais are the latest troublesome people of the world.

What for, asking questions and forming opinions?

I am not nor have ever been or even known a Bahai, but they are as welcome as anybody else in my opinion. So many people seem to reserve some unexplained hostility towards them, why?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Gratitude for what?

Our life, and ability to appreciate the variety we enjoy.

His design is a mess….

You think DNA is a mess? The only mess & chaos I see, come from men.

….and he toys with us like a kid pulling the wings off flies or frying ants with a magnifying glass.
He's a monster!

What makes you think this? What the Bible says?

 

[Aupmanyav]

So many people seem to reserve some unexplained hostility towards them, why?

That is because they try to prove all others as wrong. "This is not what Bible meant, This is not what Quran means, etc."

 

[rocala]

That is because they try to prove all others as wrong. "This is not what Bible meant, This is not what Quran means, etc."

Ok, but is that a problem? Anybody is welcome to test my beliefs and if they are found lacking then I can go forward and develop. I am fully aware that I might get things wrong, why should an alternative view worry me?

I have met many people who will not discuss their beliefs, as if they are some precious thing that must never be sullied. It is not a practice that I respect.

 

[Aupmanyav]

How have people gotten wiser?
Family life is falling / has fallen apart for many.
There’s more mental illnesses, emotional distress, and STD’s than ever before.
Greed and selfishness, traits the Bible condemns, have ruined & are ruining not only relationships, but now the planet.

Wiser in not to believe in fairies and unicorns.
Family life has been falling apart in West and not in East. What is wrong there?
Don't blame humans for what God did. He created us imperfect and junked us on Earth.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Ok, but is that a problem? Anybody is welcome to test my beliefs and if they are found lacking then I can go forward and develop. I am fully aware that I might get things wrong, why should an alternative view worry me.
I have met many people who will not discuss their beliefs, as if they are some precious thing that must never be sullied. It is not a practice that I respect.

This is not the first time that Bahais have questioned Christian view. They have done it many times and continue to do this. This topic is directed specially to them. Why this persistent attempt at finding faults? Why do Christian views bother them?
Discussed, rejected, but to no avail.

 

[Glaurung]

Jesus did not say that He was the only way to come to the Father for all of time, but that is what Christians believe. However, that makes no sense because we know that before Jesus walked the earth the Jews came to God by way of Moses, so why would Jesus suddenly become the only way for all time?

Because Christ was always the divine intention from the very beginning. Those who died in the Old Law went to Hades to await their liberation by Christ. As per the creed:

Descendit ad inferos
He descended into Hell​

Why couldn't Muslims come to God by way of Muhammad and Baha'is by way of Baha'u'llah, at a later time in history?

Because Christians believe that both Islam and the Baha'i Faith are false religions. That does not mean Christians cannot hope and pray for the salvation of their non-Christian friends but (orthodox) Christians cannot accept the notion that false religions can be salvific in their own right.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Before Jesus walked the earth, Moses was a mediator between God and men, so why couldn't Muslims come to God by way of yet another mediator, Muhammad, and Baha'is by way of yet another mediator, Baha'u'llah?

Unlike the prophets of the Old Law prior to Christ, neither Muhammad nor Baha'u'llah possessed what they claimed to possess. [Divine revelation]. I do not believe Muhammad ever spoke to Saint Gabriel nor do I believe Baha'u'llah was any kind of divine manifestation. Neither can be a mediator because neither were who they claimed to be.

This post is about if Jesus isn't the only way to come to God.

If Jesus isn't the only way to come to God that would mean that Christianity is not the only true religion.
In that case, I have two questions:

1) How would that make Christianity any less of a true religion?
2) How would that make Jesus any less of a Savior?

These questions are mainly directed at Christians, although anyone is welcome to answer them.

Thanks, Trailblazer

Fundamentally, Christianity is a historical claim. That a little over two millennia ago God himself became a man and restored the human race to good standing by his death and resurrection. Christ was not a mere prophet nor was Christianity intended to be a mere dispensation to be replaced at some later date. If Christianity is true then all other religions which claim any kind of salvific power independent of Christ are necessarily false.

 

[blü 2]

I did not know about those distinctions exist in the Bible as I am not proficient with the Bible like you are.

It is a Baha'i belief that only through an intermediary can we know anything about God or God's will for man.
We believe that there is no way we can relate to God directly, only through the intermediary, who is the Messenger of God.

In all my religious education, and church attendance ─ no great thing, it's true, but not nothing ─ I can't recall ever hearing mention that there were different versions of Jesus. The party line appears firmly to be that the NT portrays a single Jesus. Only when I read the text for myself did I become aware of the distinctions.

You'll recall that the Jewish God's followers have always been able to address / invoke [him] without an intermediary ─ though as seems to be usual once you have religious professionals, some invocations, blessings, pardons &c are only available via a priest.

 

[GoodAttention]

In all my religious education, and church attendance ─ no great thing, it's true, but not nothing ─ I can't recall ever hearing mention that there were different versions of Jesus. The party line appears firmly to be that the NT portrays a single Jesus. Only when I read the text for myself did I become aware of the distinctions.

Sounds like they gave you a spoiler alert without having to say spoiler alert.

You'll recall that the Jewish God's followers have always been able to address / invoke [him] without an intermediary ─ though as seems to be usual once you have religious professionals, some invocations, blessings, pardons &c are only available via a priest.

You could argue they can only do that through the covenant of circumcision and by obeying the law.

Muslims also don't need an intermediary since Jesus only spoke wisdom, wasn't divine, and can not be invoked.

 

[PureX]

Christians believe that Jesus is the only way to come to God, and the only mediator between God and man, making Christianity the only true religion. This belief is based upon the following Bible verses.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jesus did not say that He was the only way to come to the Father for all of time, but that is what Christians believe. However, that makes no sense because we know that before Jesus walked the earth the Jews came to God by way of Moses, so why would Jesus suddenly become the only way for all time? Why couldn't Muslims come to God by way of Muhammad and Baha'is by way of Baha'u'llah, at a later time in history?

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Before Jesus walked the earth, Moses was a mediator between God and men, so why couldn't Muslims come to God by way of yet another mediator, Muhammad, and Baha'is by way of yet another mediator, Baha'u'llah?



This post is about if Jesus isn't the only way to come to God.

If Jesus isn't the only way to come to God that would mean that Christianity is not the only true religion.
In that case, I have two questions:

1) How would that make Christianity any less of a true religion?
2) How would that make Jesus any less of a Savior?

These questions are mainly directed at Christians, although anyone is welcome to answer them.

Thanks, Trailblazer

This is an issue that requires that we interpret some poetic language.

Jesus is the Christ. Therefor, "Jesus is the only way" is stating that "Christ is the only way". And the term Christ does not refer to a specific human being, it refers to a WAY OF BEING as exemplified for us by the specific human being called Jesus of Nazareth. And that "way of being" is the "only way to God" that this poetic language is referring to.

So the question becomes what is this "way of being"? And the answer is that it is living as a reflection of the spirit of God that created us, and that dwells within us all as a result. And that spirit is the spirit of love, forgiveness, kindness, generosity, honesty, and wisdom. And it is exemplifying this spirit that is being called the only pathway to God. Because it IS the spirit of God manifesting in humanity.

Too many religionists get themselves lost by trying to interpret the poetic language of scripture way too 'literally'. And this particular quote is one of those instances.

 

[F1fan]

Why believe that creation is imperfect and we know better than God?

As soon as I hear a good explanation for cancer, including cancers that inflict children, then it is a first step towards defending the claim of a perfect creation. It's only one question of many terrible things humans have to deal with that results from living in a natural world, and that religions seems designed to help cope with. You're minding your business and then an earthquake flattens your town and kills your family. Why were earthquakes designed? How are they helpful?

 

[rocala]

Re. post 53 A while back I had been giving this matter a lot of thought and I sort of had it worked out in my head. You @PureX are far more eloquent than I. Thank you.

 

[F1fan]

How have people gotten wiser?

There is more access to information, but then most societies are competitive, and we humans feel pressure to compete and even win at the cost of others. Look at the hostility to societies sharing resources with criticism of taxation. It would be wise for a society to share resources, not accumulate wealth.

Humans have accumulated more (scientific) knowledge, yes.

Yes, we humans have experts that understand areas of science which explains ow the universe works. But look at the growing hostility towards science, and much of it driven by religious people, and/or those who push some ideological set of ideals. The SCOTUS just ruled against the Chevron Doctrine which allowed experts in government agencies to set standards for commerce and industry. Now courts will be in a position to decide issues they aren't educated about. Not very wise.

Family life is falling / has fallen apart for many.

It has ever since humans organized into societies. Many conservatives look at the 1950's as an ideal time for the nuclear family life, but they ignore the rampant racism and segregation, women lacking rights and access to education and work, and there was still rebellious youth. Many conservative Christians have an ideal about life should be, a superficial apvearance. What do they offer as real solution to real problems that citizens face as technology advances, life gets more expensive, and competetion being ushed as the way to getting ahead? Christians tend to think more church will solve the problems. Yet the divorce rate of evangelicals is about 50%. Not the best example of the perfect family.

There’s more mental illnesses, emotional distress, and STD’s than ever before.

If there's more mental illness it's because society doesn't take these people and institutionalize them until they die. And better medicines that can treat people that were once just a burden for familiies and societies. And as far as emotional distress, are you referring to the effects of social media, and more access to negative online content? What exactly are you referring to, and what solutions do you propose?

Greed and selfishness, traits the Bible condemns, have ruined & are ruining not only relationships, but now the planet.

Tell us how Christians nationalists are proposing ideas that are contrary to greed and selfishness.

 

[YoursTrue]

You're preaching.
Can you back any of this up with objective evidence? Why is your Buible any more authoritative than The Hobbit?

You bring one point to mind. Since we know humans die, do you account for evolution as the reason we die?

 

[Jimmy]

Legends and folk tales.
Can Odin or Zeus die?

Don’t forget me lucky charms

 

[Valjean]

Why believe that creation is imperfect and we know better than God?

We do know better than God -- at least His Biblical or Christian persona.

His morality is spotty; often egregiously cruel or impulsive. His planning is often bizarre. His biological designs a first-year engineering student could improve upon.

Very good association of facts!

Yes, the animal sacrifices pointed to Christ. Many people don’t get that. But blood was to be given, for atonement. Paul spoke about that, and correlated the two: the Israelites’ sacrifices to Jesus’ one sacrifice. — Hebrews 10:1-14

Very astute, Valjean.

We all know the smell of burning flesh is sweet to Him.

But what is this 'atonement' thing? It seems a very odd sort of quid pro quo, killing an innocent to undo the misdeeds of a principal. How's that work? What's the point?

Couldn't that system be simplified or improved upon? More poor design, if you ask me -- unless one's trying to provoke people to dramatic misbehavior for one's own amusement.

 

[Valjean]

You bring one point to mind. Since we know humans die, do you account for evolution as the reason we die?

No. That's an odd concept: evolution as a 'reason' for death.
Clarify?