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If Jesus was God, explain this verse...
- Thread starter Aamer
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Shermana
Heretic
You're really not understanding what I'm saying.
Yes, Jesus was destined/foreordained to be slaughtered from the beginning. But you have been proven wrong on each account of your attempt to say that Jesus does not have a soul and is the same being as God.
How can I make that more clear for you?
Shermana
Heretic
You have not proven me wrong whatsoever.
What it proves is that I have proven you wrong each time, and you keep up with miserable attempts to try to say you've somehow proven me wrong. I've already proven that you don't have this "Spirit of Truth", how many more times would you like me to show you that you are in error?
Shermana
Heretic
What are you talking about?
Jesus had a soul. That means he was a Soul in his body. What do you think it means when Jesus says "My soul"? His soul was his being. That makes him a "Soul-being" or whatever it is you called him. To be 'made" a Spirit would imply that Jesus was created according to the logic you're conveying, and you certainly don't believe he was created, so where does that leave you?
This ambiguous verse has been controversial and not well understood even by the orthodox commentators. And you have yet to explain what you think it means.
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_corinthians/15-45.htm
It says he was "made" a quickening Spirit. Thus, the soul that was Jesus, was "made" as a Quickening Spirit. You obviously don't understand what a Spirit or a Soul are. What do you think it means for Jesus to be a soul, and to be MADE a quickening Spirit? How does that work in your view?
Now let's look at Young's Literal:
Young's Literal Translation
so also it hath been written, 'The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit,
Hmmm, is FOR a life-giving Spirit. Wonder what that means....
Why would Young's say the "last Adam" is FOR a life-giving Spirit....
Perhaps it's not saying Jesus was a Spirit at all.
But he was made FOR a spirit.
It appears you simply are being hypocritical when it comes to things that disagree with you.
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Notice I explained what a soul in a spirit below by using Gods Word.
Yes you used 1 Corinthians 15:45 to agree with me what I said earlier the quickening means living or life giving spirit.
But you never broke down what a soul is; please tell me using Gods Word what a spirit is and what a soul is using Gods Word not what you assume.
A SOUL:
A soul is our mind intellect and our reasoning; that is why Adam was formed not created from the dust of the earth and God made him a living soul.
Yes I was wrong in saying Jesus did not have a soul. BUT I was never wrong when I tell you that Jesus soul was not formed from the dust of the earth. So His soul was not corrupted like Adams. BIG DIFFERENCE...
Notice God did create Adam in His image and likeness which is a "Spirit" for God is a Spirit: for they that worship Him worship Him in Spirit and truth. God does not have a soulish human mind and His intellect is of the Spirit.
Yes both Adams are created as Spirit.
The first Adam was made in God's image and likeness and God (who knows how much later) God purposely formed Adam from the dust of the earth and made him a living soul so purposely Adam would fall
Yes God made Jesus a quickening Spirit; but what material did God create these two Adams from initially?
Himself.
Spirit.
That is why the word Elohim is used in Genesis first chapter, Psalm 82 and Job 38.
Both preordained for a purpose, one to fall so all of Gods creation could go thought the process of redemption.
The other to be preordain before the foundation of the earth to die and reverse the curse of the first Adam.
1 Corithians15:
43It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
Shermana
Heretic
Your explanation is wrong. The Soul is not just the mind. When someone says "My soul" as an independent entity, they're not just talking about a simple faculty of their brain.
That's not what I'm asking for. Besides, I was agreeing in terms of your own logic. And it doesn't even say he was "Made" technically.
The soul is the inner being that is you. It is what controls your mind itself. It is an independent entity which is nonetheless you at the same time. It is your "inmost being". What could that mean?
Psalm 103 NIV - Of David. Praise the LORD, my soul; all - Bible Gateway
Obviously "inmost being" is something beyond just your mind. You don't tell your mind to praise god.
Once again, a living soul is a soul that is given life on Earth.
I never said Jesus's soul was formed from the dust of the Earth, and you are wrong in thinking that Adam's soul was formed from the Earth. Adam's FLESH was made from the dust. His soul was given life in the vehicle of flesh.
And what do you think "His intellect is of the Spirit" even means?
Being made in the likeness, we have a Spirit AND we have a soul. Therefore, God has a soul too as well as a Spirit.
Perhaps it is the Spirit we are first created as, and the Soul which is the module that contains it, the exactness is not well defined, but they are different and both eternal.
Why do you think Jesus says "Fear Him who can destroy body AND soul"?
Now you're getting into your own personal theological concepts that have no scriptural basis. Quite the hypocritical thing to do.
Irrelevant.
Souls are in fact called "gods". Hence why Sameul's departed soul is called a "god" when the Witch of Endor summons it.
Since you are so big on having explicit scriptural proof, please provide the verse that directly shows this.
And where does it say "to reverse the curse of the First Adam"?
Yes, we have a Spiritual body. Is that against what I said?
The text doesn't even say "made", it simply says "unto". Hence, my Young's literal translation that says "For".
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What do you think "Spiritual" even means?
I ask you again, do you think a "Soul" is something that you are born with like an organ that grows in the womb and dies with your body?
Shermana
Heretic
So what does it mean when it says "Fear him who can destroy both Body and soul in Hell" if the soul is only for the "Temporal" realm?
The hell spoken about here is Gehenna,
Just like the Lake of Fire, Gehenna is not physical flames, even though Gehenna is the garbage dump outside the city of Jerusalem. Gehenna Judgment is actually spiritual in nature; it is the reaping of what Isreal had sown by killing the prophets and their children in the fire to Molech and Baal at Topheth and in the Valley of Ben Hiddom (later called Gehenna). God warned that He is the only God, there is no other like Him.
Gehenna is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem; a place of constant burning of refuge. Those who go to Gehenna are not sinners of the world; but are sinners of Gods people. (how precious is this a type of purification outside of Gods holy city. All things that are not of God will be purified by Gods holy judgment. This word Gehenna is never used not for sinner, murders or liars; the only one this one Gehenna address in the NT is BROTHER.
Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell (Gehenna) fire.
Since you are so big on having explicit scriptural proof, please provide the verse that directly shows this.
Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.
(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have
ISA 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.
Jeremiah 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying: 2 Arise and go down to the potters house, and there I will cause you to hear My words. 3 Then I went down to the potters house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.
Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.
(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have
ISA 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.
Jeremiah 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying: 2 Arise and go down to the potters house, and there I will cause you to hear My words. 3 Then I went down to the potters house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.
Being made in the likeness, we have a Spirit AND we have a soul. Therefore, God has a soul too as well as a Spirit.
Show me where God has a soul? This is just your opinion. I know when Adam became a living soul but never does it mention God has a soul
As I posted on my other post: Now all the animals and beasts of the field are also called “living souls” in the creation story in Genesis. But there is a difference! Let the fact be imprinted indelibly upon our minds that none of these became a “living soul” by the inbreathing of God! God did not Himself breathe into the nostrils of cattle, lions, elephants, birds, fish, cockroaches, or any other creature. Their “breath of life” is of an inferior quality to that of man. The breath of life of the animal kingdom is merely the oxygen of our lower atmosphere. They are, therefore, a creation of God but are unrelated to God. The breath of life in man, however, originates out of the very spirit essence of God Himself — inbreathed — thus, when a man dies his body returns to the dust from whence it came, but his spirit returns to God who gave it! (Eccl. 12:7).
Show me where God has a soul? This is just your opinion. I know when Adam became a living soul but never does it mention God has a soul
As I posted on my other post: Now all the animals and beasts of the field are also called “living souls” in the creation story in Genesis. But there is a difference! Let the fact be imprinted indelibly upon our minds that none of these became a “living soul” by the inbreathing of God! God did not Himself breathe into the nostrils of cattle, lions, elephants, birds, fish, cockroaches, or any other creature. Their “breath of life” is of an inferior quality to that of man. The breath of life of the animal kingdom is merely the oxygen of our lower atmosphere. They are, therefore, a creation of God but are unrelated to God. The breath of life in man, however, originates out of the very spirit essence of God Himself — inbreathed — thus, when a man dies his body returns to the dust from whence it came, but his spirit returns to God who gave it! (Eccl. 12:7).
Shermana
Heretic
You just said we are made in God's image, therefore we have a Spirit.
"Living souls" means that they are souls that have bodies. It doesn't matter if animals have an inferior quality. You're really grasping at straws and there's no straws to grasp in the first place. You're grabbing cactus needles instead.
You have repeatedly refused to address the issue that the concept of one's soul in the literature is defined as their "inmost being", something well beyond just a "mind". You have also refused to address why it says "Fear him who can destroy both body and Soul in hell".
It seems you simply don't want to include the verses that go against your own theology.
"Living souls" means that they are souls that have bodies. It doesn't matter if animals have an inferior quality. You're really grasping at straws and there's no straws to grasp in the first place. You're grabbing cactus needles instead.
You have repeatedly refused to address the issue that the concept of one's soul in the literature is defined as their "inmost being", something well beyond just a "mind". You have also refused to address why it says "Fear him who can destroy both body and Soul in hell".
It seems you simply don't want to include the verses that go against your own theology.
You do not read my post.
Read 449
it is the small hidden details of the Bible that is where the spiritual truth is.
Pro. 25: 2
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter
Shermana
Heretic
This is a major controversial issue, of how to read the two Genesis accounts, which I'm assuming you've never come across the contentious sides of the debates before.
First off, Day 7 God did no work.
Second off, there's good reason to believe the man and woman created in day 6 is much different than the man planted in the Garden.
By your own logic of how you are interpreting it, Eve was created in day 6, but apparently didn't exist until day 7.
So you may want to give that a good think.
Shermana
Heretic
Oh boy, you are really caught up in your own beliefs as if they're matter of fact and not hugely contentious issues that have divided the top minds of Christiandom for years.
The idea that Gehenna was just a "Garbage dump" is basically a modern revisionist myth.
Feel free to see this thread, and answer the questions. No one really has been able to so far.
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...653-gen-hinnom-gehenna-just-garbage-dump.html
With that said, you're not really addressing the fact that Body and Soul are said to be destroyed even after death.
Has nothing to do with logic, it is called context.
Gen 1:26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
God is a spirit and when God created Adam on the sixth day, he was created in Gods image and likeness; which is spirit.
Genesis 2: 2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen. 2:7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Context Context.
It was the seventh day, God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Notice 6th day created Gods image.
7th day formed from the dust of the ground and be became a living soul. Two days formed and created, spirit and soul.
God lowered Adam from a pure spiritual being on the seventh day to a being formed from the dust of the earth and a living soul.
Shermana
Heretic
To turn man to destruction means to punish them for their sins. Are you a super-determinist or something? Sometimes God does harden people's hearts, like with Pharoah, but that's an entirely different concept in this theology.
It was not bound to fail because of its own choice. Right. My choice is not to get fat even if I sit around and eat chips all day.
Isaiah 63:17 Commentaries: Why, O LORD, do You cause us to stray from Your ways And harden our heart from fearing You? Return for the sake of Your servants, the tribes of Your heritage.
There is a very possible translation issue here, and it should be more or less "Why do you ALLOW us to wander from your ways".
Isaiah 63:17 Commentaries: Why, O LORD, do You cause us to stray from Your ways And harden our heart from fearing You? Return for the sake of Your servants, the tribes of Your heritage.
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What's the point of this one?