If Jesus was God, explain this verse...

[Muffled]

Hi Muffled, so it appears that what you quote agrees with me. YHWH is 'I am who I am, or I will be who I will be," and those how are part of YHWH are ELOHIM. KB

Literally "I am who I am" is "EYAH." The Jewish position may be that JHVH is related but the statement made was vague as to what a literal translation could be.

 

[Muffled]

Jesus' teachings are truth.
Jesus teaches--he has a God--his Father-John 20:17, rev 3:12----- believe Jesus.

I believe Jesus teaches the truth that He is God so I have no problem with the fact that God has a Father and a God. I would be shocked if He didn't.

So the bottom line is that I don't see how having a Father and God disproves that Jesus is God in the flesh.

 

[kjw47]

I believe Jesus teaches the truth that He is God so I have no problem with the fact that God has a Father and a God. I would be shocked if He didn't.

So the bottom line is that I don't see how having a Father and God disproves that Jesus is God in the flesh.

This is the trinity teaching at rev 3:12------- God has a God with another God over there as well ,but one God. ---- just confusion is all that is.----believe Jesus--he has a God---God does not have a God.

 

[Muffled]

This is the trinity teaching at rev 3:12------- God has a God with another God over there as well ,but one God. ---- just confusion is all that is.----believe Jesus--he has a God---God does not have a God.

I believe you are confused but that confusion does not come from God.

So in other words I believe you are saying that God does not recognize Himself as God. Where do you get that from? I believe God quite clearly states in the Bible that He is God.

 

[kjw47]

I believe you are confused but that confusion does not come from God.

So in other words I believe you are saying that God does not recognize Himself as God. Where do you get that from? I believe God quite clearly states in the Bible that He is God.

1 cor 1:10= 32,999 trinity religionssssssssssssssssss--you are correct-- confusion doesn't come from God.

 

[Otis]

One needs to remember that though Jesus was God in the spirit, He was man in the flesh. The Flesh was the part being tempted. But the flesh was under complete submission to the spirit. We each have this dual nature, though we have a genetic nature of sin "The Adomic nature", we are born sinners. Jesus didn't have the genetic nature of sin as He was born of a virgin. He didn't inherit sin as the blood line goes through the father. A good example would be an addict, one that wants to stop but can, this is the classic battle of flesh versus spirit. The spirit wants to stop but the flesh doesn't. The devil was testing (tempting) the flesh.

 

[Shiranui117]

1 cor 1:10= 32,999 trinity religionssssssssssssssssss--you are correct-- confusion doesn't come from God.

Looks like your "s" key broke for a minute there.

Consider this: None of the Christian denominations that teach the Trinity conflict with each other about that teaching, but instead about other things, like the style of church governance, whether instruments should be used in worship, whether Calvinism or Arminianism is acceptable, whether the service should be traditional or contemporary, and multiple other issues of practice and our relationship to God and to others. They are all agreed on Who God is.

You're right, confusion doesn't come from God, and there's no confusion among orthodox (small-o) Christians about Who God is, and about Who Christ is. The position that Jesus is not God is something that arose after the time of the Apostles, and after the time of the students of the Apostles. God said that He would preserve His Church against the attacks of the Devil, and that the gates of Hades would not prevail against His Church. St. Paul described the Church as the pillar and ground of the Truth in 1 Timothy 3:15. And what do we see? We see a steady and constant witness, from the Lord Himself and from His Apostles, to their students, and so on and so forth, continuously through the millennia right down until today, and they all teach that Jesus is fully God and fully man. The people who claimed to be Christians and who taught that Jesus is not God came after the time of the Lord and His Apostles, and they have come and gone throughout the centuries. There were entire centuries when absolutely no Christian denied the divinity of Christ.

Ask yourself: Would God allow the truth about Who He is and about Who His Son is to be completely extinguished from the face of the earth for centuries? Would He have not preserved the true Faith, regardless of how much persecution came? Nowhere in the Bible is it taught that the true Faith would be completely lost. There are prophesies of people breaking away from the Faith and apostasizing, yes, but there is not one verse in the Bible that tells us that the true Faith will be snuffed out by heresy. Not. A single. One.

The true Faith and the true teaching of Christ is the one that has withstood the test of time, from the age of the Lord and His Apostles right down to the current time. And there is only one Faith that has gone two thousand years and counting without change from 33 AD to 2014, continuously.

 

[kjw47]

Looks like your "s" key broke for a minute there.

Consider this: None of the Christian denominations that teach the Trinity conflict with each other about that teaching, but instead about other things, like the style of church governance, whether instruments should be used in worship, whether Calvinism or Arminianism is acceptable, whether the service should be traditional or contemporary, and multiple other issues of practice and our relationship to God and to others. They are all agreed on Who God is.

You're right, confusion doesn't come from God, and there's no confusion among orthodox (small-o) Christians about Who God is, and about Who Christ is. The position that Jesus is not God is something that arose after the time of the Apostles, and after the time of the students of the Apostles. God said that He would preserve His Church against the attacks of the Devil, and that the gates of Hades would not prevail against His Church. St. Paul described the Church as the pillar and ground of the Truth in 1 Timothy 3:15. And what do we see? We see a steady and constant witness, from the Lord Himself and from His Apostles, to their students, and so on and so forth, continuously through the millennia right down until today, and they all teach that Jesus is fully God and fully man. The people who claimed to be Christians and who taught that Jesus is not God came after the time of the Lord and His Apostles, and they have come and gone throughout the centuries. There were entire centuries when absolutely no Christian denied the divinity of Christ.

Ask yourself: Would God allow the truth about Who He is and about Who His Son is to be completely extinguished from the face of the earth for centuries? Would He have not preserved the true Faith, regardless of how much persecution came? Nowhere in the Bible is it taught that the true Faith would be completely lost. There are prophesies of people breaking away from the Faith and apostasizing, yes, but there is not one verse in the Bible that tells us that the true Faith will be snuffed out by heresy. Not. A single. One.

The true Faith and the true teaching of Christ is the one that has withstood the test of time, from the age of the Lord and His Apostles right down to the current time. And there is only one Faith that has gone two thousand years and counting without change from 33 AD to 2014, continuously.

If you mean Catholicism--please--they cannot even understand simple bible milk let alone the meat.
1) ot--the use of statues and icons are forbidden
2) call no man Father( spiritually)
3) Presenting Jesus as a sinner in the pics with long hair.
4) eternal suffering
5) say 9 hail Marys and you are forgiven
6) etc,etc and it goes on and on--simple bible things they do just the opposite--- not even to mention their bloodguilt has amassed to the heavens.

 

[Shiranui117]

If you mean Catholicism--please--they cannot even understand simple bible milk let alone the meat.

I am not Catholic. I am Eastern Orthodox. The Catholics have made the supremacy and infallibility of the Pope dogmas, and changed the Creed. Thus, they have made changes to their Faith and have deviated from the Truth.

1) ot--the use of statues and icons are forbidden

Then explain Solomon decorating the Temple with statues and paintings and carvings of cherubim and plants in 1 Kings 7, and God blessing the Temple being filled with all those images?

The commandment tells us to not worship and serve idols, and neither Catholics nor Orthodox worship idols. We Orthodox venerate icons in the same way that a soldier salutes the American flag--it is not worship, but a show of respect.

2) call no man Father( spiritually)

Then explain 1 Corinthians 4:15, where St. Paul calls himself the spiritual father of the Corinthians, and verse 17, where he calls Timothy his spiritual son?

For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. 16 Therefore I exhort you, be imitators of me. 17 For this reason I have sent to you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, and he will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, just as I teach everywhere in every church.

Moreover, the Apostles call themselves teachers, even when Christ said to call no man teacher. Did the Apostles break the Lord's command to call no man father or teacher? Of course not. The real meaning of "call no man father or teacher" is to acknowledge that, above everyone else, it is God Who is our Father and Teacher. It is perfectly fine to call someone your spiritual father, as long as you recognize that your true Father is God.

3) Presenting Jesus as a sinner in the pics with long hair.

What? Who presents Jesus as a sinner? And what does the length of Jesus' hair have to do with His being sinful or not? The command in Paul's epistle was to not have tresses of hair like a woman. St. John the Baptist had long and wild hair thanks to living in the wilderness, yet no one chewed him out for having long hair. Certainly not the Lord.

4) eternal suffering

Then what do you make of the passage that says "the smoke of their torment will ascend forever?" We can certainly hope that all will be saved, but it is clear that eternal suffering is a very real possibility throughout the New Testament.

5) say 9 hail Marys and you are forgiven

Now, this is a product of the legalistic mindset of the Roman Catholics, where a certain sin gets you so much time in Purgatory, and a certain thing gets you so much time out of Purgatory. In medieval Catholicism, you could literally sit down and do the math of "Alright, this sin gets me this much time in Purgatory, and if I do this, then I get that much time out of Purgatory." It was a product of the thought of such medieval scholars as Thomas Aquinas and Anselm of Canterbury (the latter who, by the way, invented the idea of the substitutionary atonement of Christ around 1100). Sin in medieval Catholicism was a crime committed.

Orthodoxy does not take such a lackadaisical approach to penance, nor does she take a legalistic approach to spirituality. Rather, we are expected to actually repent and change ourselves when seeking God's forgiveness, because that's what the word "repentance" means in the first place--coming from Greek metanoia, which means to change one's heart and mind. Sure, we might be told by the priest in confession, "Say 100 Jesus prayers and do better next time," but we're not just supposed to do 100 Jesus prayers and then we're done. No, we are to say 100 Jesus prayers and avoiding that sin every single day for the rest of our lives, so we begin to build a habit of praying without ceasing (1 Thessalonians 5:17), and through constant prayer, we draw closer to God and get away from sin, becoming more and more like Christ.

Spirituality in Orthodoxy is not legalistic, but therapeutic, triumphant and reconciliatory. It is therapeutic in that it focuses on Christ as the Physician of our souls and bodies, healing us of the disease of sin that plagues us. It is triumphant, in that Christ has defeated death and sin, and freed us from our bonds, and brought us into the Kingdom of Heaven to reign and rejoice with Him. It is reconciliatory, in that our sins have created a chasm between us and God, and our Lord, God and Savior Christ has taken our humanity and united it to Himself, thus making of Himself a bridge between mankind and God, reuniting us to Him, bringing us prodigal children back to God to share in His love and communion.

6) etc,etc and it goes on and on--simple bible things they do just the opposite--- not even to mention their bloodguilt has amassed to the heavens.

The actions of Catholics aren't indicative of the truth of their faith, especially when their actions run contrary to what their faith actually teaches.

 

[kjw47]

I am not Catholic. I am Eastern Orthodox. The Catholics have made the supremacy and infallibility of the Pope dogmas, and changed the Creed. Thus, they have made changes to their Faith and have deviated from the Truth.

Then explain Solomon decorating the Temple with statues and paintings and carvings of cherubim and plants in 1 Kings 7, and God blessing the Temple being filled with all those images?

The commandment tells us to not worship and serve idols, and neither Catholics nor Orthodox worship idols. We Orthodox venerate icons in the same way that a soldier salutes the American flag--it is not worship, but a show of respect.

Then explain 1 Corinthians 4:15, where St. Paul calls himself the spiritual father of the Corinthians, and verse 17, where he calls Timothy his spiritual son?

For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. 16 Therefore I exhort you, be imitators of me. 17 For this reason I have sent to you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, and he will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, just as I teach everywhere in every church.

Moreover, the Apostles call themselves teachers, even when Christ said to call no man teacher. Did the Apostles break the Lord's command to call no man father or teacher? Of course not. The real meaning of "call no man father or teacher" is to acknowledge that, above everyone else, it is God Who is our Father and Teacher. It is perfectly fine to call someone your spiritual father, as long as you recognize that your true Father is God.

What? Who presents Jesus as a sinner? And what does the length of Jesus' hair have to do with His being sinful or not? The command in Paul's epistle was to not have tresses of hair like a woman. St. John the Baptist had long and wild hair thanks to living in the wilderness, yet no one chewed him out for having long hair. Certainly not the Lord.

Then what do you make of the passage that says "the smoke of their torment will ascend forever?" We can certainly hope that all will be saved, but it is clear that eternal suffering is a very real possibility throughout the New Testament.

Now, this is a product of the legalistic mindset of the Roman Catholics, where a certain sin gets you so much time in Purgatory, and a certain thing gets you so much time out of Purgatory. In medieval Catholicism, you could literally sit down and do the math of "Alright, this sin gets me this much time in Purgatory, and if I do this, then I get that much time out of Purgatory." It was a product of the thought of such medieval scholars as Thomas Aquinas and Anselm of Canterbury (the latter who, by the way, invented the idea of the substitutionary atonement of Christ around 1100). Sin in medieval Catholicism was a crime committed.

Orthodoxy does not take such a lackadaisical approach to penance, nor does she take a legalistic approach to spirituality. Rather, we are expected to actually repent and change ourselves when seeking God's forgiveness, because that's what the word "repentance" means in the first place--coming from Greek metanoia, which means to change one's heart and mind. Sure, we might be told by the priest in confession, "Say 100 Jesus prayers and do better next time," but we're not just supposed to do 100 Jesus prayers and then we're done. No, we are to say 100 Jesus prayers and avoiding that sin every single day for the rest of our lives, so we begin to build a habit of praying without ceasing (1 Thessalonians 5:17), and through constant prayer, we draw closer to God and get away from sin, becoming more and more like Christ.

Spirituality in Orthodoxy is not legalistic, but therapeutic, triumphant and reconciliatory. It is therapeutic in that it focuses on Christ as the Physician of our souls and bodies, healing us of the disease of sin that plagues us. It is triumphant, in that Christ has defeated death and sin, and freed us from our bonds, and brought us into the Kingdom of Heaven to reign and rejoice with Him. It is reconciliatory, in that our sins have created a chasm between us and God, and our Lord, God and Savior Christ has taken our humanity and united it to Himself, thus making of Himself a bridge between mankind and God, reuniting us to Him, bringing us prodigal children back to God to share in His love and communion.

The actions of Catholics aren't indicative of the truth of their faith, especially when their actions run contrary to what their faith actually teaches.

There is a pact in the ot--only Nazarites could have long hair( Samson was one) ( not Nazarene) and they could never drink alchohol. Otherwise it was forbidden for a man to have long hair.

Hebrew= Sheol=greek=hades--the grave. =English = hell.
Jesus taught those who walk the broad and spacious path to destruction( eternal)

Also In the ot--When one takes in knowledge( John 17:3,6) of THE ONLY TRUE GOD--YHWH(Jehovah) --they easily learn what his real justice scales equal--- perfect justice. Then they easily know that a literal place of eternal suffering is an impossibility. Deut 32:4 and--an eye for an eye--perfect justice are Gods justice scales.

 

[Shiranui117]

There is a pact in the ot--only Nazarites could have long hair( Samson was one). . .Otherwise it was forbidden for a man to have long hair.

Where does it say that in the Bible?

Hebrew= Sheol=greek=hades--the grave. =English = hell.
Jesus taught those who walk the broad and spacious path to destruction( eternal)

Jesus promises that the wicked won't go to "Hades" (AKA the realm of the dead both righteous and unrighteous, where they exist as shades and are conscious according to the Gospels and various other places in the Bible), but instead to the Lake of Fire, where the smoke of their torment will go up forever, as Revelation states.

Yes, using "Hell" as a name for the Lake of Fire is in fact a misnomer; etymologically, English "Hell" is related to German "Höhle", which means a cave or other subterranean structure. German "Hölle" is along the same lines, but is used for the Lake of Fire. We can blame Bede for "Hell" being used as the name of the Lake of Fire. Gehenna is a better term for that.

Also In the ot--When one takes in knowledge( John 17:3,6) of THE ONLY TRUE GOD--YHWH(Jehovah) --they easily learn what his real justice scales equal--- perfect justice. Then they easily know that a literal place of eternal suffering is an impossibility. Deut 32:4 and--an eye for an eye--perfect justice are Gods justice scales.

Actually, God doesn't teach "an eye for an eye." That was a provisional thing to help the Israelites learn discipline--fear of punishment to enforce morals. In the New Covenant, Jesus doesn't teach what you call "perfect justice." Jesus teaches us to turn the other cheek, bless those who curse us, do good to those who spitefully use us, and pray for those who hate us.

The Israelites didn't really even believe in an afterlife in their primitive stages, so of course they didn't believe in a place of eternal torment. All the reward and punishment one got was during this life, and that was it. It was only later in the Scriptures that Hades is understood by the Israelites as being an actual realm of the dead, where the spirit lives on. Heck, no one even believed in the resurrection of the dead at the start.

 

[metis]

If you mean Catholicism--please--they cannot even understand simple bible milk let alone the meat.

Really? They've been at it for darn near 2000 years, so exactly how long have you been at it?

 

[BigRed]

Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

If Jesus was God, why was he tempted by the Devil? Can God be tempted by the Devil, his own creation?

Granted, he passed the test. But if he was God... Why was there a test in the first place? Does God need to test himself?

Are God and Jesus really one in the same? Please answer logically how this is possible given the verse above.

Good point....
But here is something related that supposedly took place during that temptation.

In the Gospel attributed to Matthew, the gospel writer makes an extraordinary claim concerning world geography. He wrote that the devil took Jesus to the top of a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world.
Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory Matthew 4:8
The disturbing thing is that this mountain does not exist. There is no mountain from which one can see all the kingdoms of the world.
I’m sure the writer of the gospel realized that if he observed from a high place he could see a lot further than if he observed from a low place. But he didn’t know that there was no mountain high enough to see all the kingdoms of the world and certainly he did not know that the world is round.
Matthew wasn’t present when supposedly the devil took Jesus up on that imaginary mountain, so we know that Jesus’ imaginary trip to the top of an imaginary mountain is just a fiction made up by Matthew or a later editor.
Dishonest in one, dishonest in all. It only takes one lie to make a liar. Certainly we cannot trust the integrity of the gospel attributed to Matthew.

BigRed

 

[kjw47]

Really? They've been at it for darn near 2000 years, so exactly how long have you been at it?

Bible milk----- DO NOT call a man Father( in a spiritual sense, not a daddy sense) ---No mortal has the right to be called Father---YHWH(Jehovah) is the Father( of Jesus) the name Jesus is eternal Father by his sacrifice for mankind.
bible milk--- the use of statues and (icons ( little pagan metal cross)are forbidden.
Do not make any image of the likes of what is in heaven--Is Mary in heaven? Is Jesus in heaven?
Which blots sin out--- repentence or 9 hail Marys?-acts 3:19
They tell everyone to partake of Jesus blood and body--When truth is this--Not all are worthy to partake. 1 Corinthians 11:27)
Eternal hellfire teaching is an impossibility if one knows God.

God made a pact with the Nazarites(Samson)( not Nazarenes, these are different, Jesus)--They could have long hair as long as they never drank alchohol, the rest( Israelites) could not have long hair - Thus all through the centuries, in their pics of Jesus with long hair, was showing Jesus as a sinner to the whole world, and still does. I am confident Jesus is not happy about that. it goes on and on. Darkness doesn't turn to light without correction.

 

[Shiranui117]

Bible milk----- DO NOT call a man Father( in a spiritual sense, not a daddy sense) ---No mortal has the right to be called Father---YHWH(Jehovah) is the Father( of Jesus) the name Jesus is eternal Father by his sacrifice for mankind.
bible milk--- the use of statues and (icons ( little pagan metal cross)are forbidden.
Do not make any image of the likes of what is in heaven--Is Mary in heaven? Is Jesus in heaven?
Which blots sin out--- repentence or 9 hail Marys?-acts 3:19
They tell everyone to partake of Jesus blood and body--When truth is this--Not all are worthy to partake. 1 Corinthians 11:27)
Eternal hellfire teaching is an impossibility if one knows God.

All of these assertions have been refuted a dozen times over in this and other threads... Want links?

the rest( Israelites) could not have long hair - Thus all through the centuries, in their pics of Jesus with long hair, was showing Jesus as a sinner to the whole world, and still does. I am confident Jesus is not happy about that. it goes on and on. Darkness doesn't turn to light without correction.

Any Scripture to back up this assertion that long hair on men is sinful unless you're a Nazirite?

 

[metis]

Bible milk----- DO NOT call a man Father( in a spiritual sense, not a daddy sense) ---No mortal has the right to be called Father---YHWH(Jehovah) is the Father( of Jesus) the name Jesus is eternal Father by his sacrifice for mankind.
bible milk--- the use of statues and (icons ( little pagan metal cross)are forbidden.
Do not make any image of the likes of what is in heaven--Is Mary in heaven? Is Jesus in heaven?
Which blots sin out--- repentence or 9 hail Marys?-acts 3:19
They tell everyone to partake of Jesus blood and body--When truth is this--Not all are worthy to partake. 1 Corinthians 11:27)
Eternal hellfire teaching is an impossibility if one knows God.

God made a pact with the Nazarites(Samson)( not Nazarenes, these are different, Jesus)--They could have long hair as long as they never drank alchohol, the rest( Israelites) could not have long hair - Thus all through the centuries, in their pics of Jesus with long hair, was showing Jesus as a sinner to the whole world, and still does. I am confident Jesus is not happy about that. it goes on and on. Darkness doesn't turn to light without correction.

It's quite obvious you have never studied Catholic theology, and your portrayal of it above is both shallow and nonsensical. However, I have no interest in getting involved any further, but let me recommend you doing some actual research to avoid stereotypes like the above. If you need help finding where you can research this out, please let me know.

 

[kjw47]

It's quite obvious you have never studied Catholic theology, and your portrayal of it above is both shallow and nonsensical. However, I have no interest in getting involved any further, but let me recommend you doing some actual research to avoid stereotypes like the above. If you need help finding where you can research this out, please let me know.

I talked to different catholics--- they don't have a clue obviously--they all say something different. I did research--I listened to Jesus' truths---Catholicism doesn't teach them.

 

[kjw47]

All of these assertions have been refuted a dozen times over in this and other threads... Want links?


Any Scripture to back up this assertion that long hair on men is sinful unless you're a Nazirite?

Off hand I am not sure of its location--but it is a fact.

 

[metis]

I talked to different catholics--- they don't have a clue obviously--they all say something different. I did research--I listened to Jesus' truths---Catholicism doesn't teach them.

They don't? Then you don't believe in God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, forgiveness, heaven, hell, etc. because they all are found in RCC teachings.

 

[Ouroboros]

They don't? Then you don't believe in God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, forgiveness, heaven, hell, etc. because they all are found in RCC teachings.

Also he doesn't believe in the Bible or having a church or priest/pastor or prayer or eucharist...