Well if God really wanted A&E to obey don't you tink God would have created them adequately obedient? God didn't, and knew they would eat from the tree of knowledge. So we can't blame A&E.Of course God knew what would happen, but God's knowledge did not cause A & E to eat the apple, not that I believe there ever was a tree with an apple.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
If there is a hell, what percentage of humans should go there?
- Thread starter Sedim Haba
- Start date
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Below is the spiritual interpretation, as opposed to the literal interpretation, of the Lazarus resurrection ‘story.’
I believe that the part about the tomb and Mary and Martha is just part of the story that was necessary in order to get to the final punch line in John 11:25-26.
12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.
14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him.”
16 Then Thomas, who is called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with Him.”
17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days. 18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles[a] away. 19 And many of the Jews had joined the women around Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.
20 Now Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. 21 Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”
Jesus did not say that the body of Lazarus would rise again. He said rise: 23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
Then apparently Martha assumed Jesus meant the body: 24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
Then Jesus said that He was the resurrection and the life and that whoever believes in Him will never die.
He was talking about the eternal life of the soul, NOT the life of the physical body.
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
The Martha said Yes, I believe in you Jesus: 27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
When Jesus said: 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die He was referring to spiritual death, not physical death, because everyone dies physically.
The following verses are congruent with John 11:25-26 and they refer to the eternal life of the soul, not the eternal life of the body.
John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, Baha'u'llah said nothing about an apple or Adam and Eve.
Baha'is do not believe that Adam and Eve is a true story, we believe it is allegorical.
30: ADAM AND EVE
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I don't believe there was ever an Adam and Eve. Baha'is believe that story is allegorical.
30: ADAM AND EVE
Christianity is based upon and depends upon A & E and the Garden of Eden being a true story.
Christians needed original sin so we would need Jesus to save us from that sin, that is the basis of Christianity.
The thing is, Jesus knew nothing of original sin and it is not what He died for.
Jesus sacrificed Himself for our sinful nature, but not becaue A & E disobeyed God by eating a piece of fruit.
Christianity really went south by interpreting A & E as a true story.
Once the train got derailed there was no putting it back on the tracks.
It is like a train wreck.
IF there's a God and IF God is omnipotent and IF God is benevolent then there's no need for a Hell.
In that case, when you die, God pats you on the head and cures you of your vices (many of which arise from your genes and your life experiences growing up, neither of which you got to choose).
Of course, IF any of those conditions is not met, all bets are off.
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
The tree of knowledge of good and evil, symbolizes the perceptional basis for law. Both knowledge of good and evil and law, separate behavior into good and evil. Law only adds punishment to knowledge of good and evil to help funnel behavior. This was Satan's tree in the garden of Eden. God did not want Adam and Eve to eat from that tree of good and evil. God did not condone humans looking at reality in terms of good and evil. Law was not God's first choice in terms of human optimization. God even set up a taboo law experiment to help Adam and Eve learn the pitfalls, but they fail to learn, due to their subjective intoxication. Law never had God's full support, from day one.
Satan, who was intimately connected to the tree of knowledge of good and evil and law, panders to Adam and Eve's fear and vanity, convincing Adam and Eve; humans and original sin, to accept his law approach toward reality. He said, you will become like a god knowing good from evil. In a sense law, all through history, allows some people; monarchs, to play god, with the lives of others. But such law was usually self serving; vanity, power and appeasing paranoia. Law allows power over life and death, like a god. But this does not often end well; death appears for nothing but egocentricity.
Jesus comes along and teaches that no one was justified by the law, since through the law, one also learns about sin. Law is half good and half evil. Law is not all good. Law will teach us the good things to do; do not steal, but it also teaches us the bad things; thousands of way to steal, that we need to avoid. Law helps a white line appear against a larger black background. Adam and Eve, after being prohibited from the tree of knowledge, cannot help but eat from that tree; impulse from repressed darkness that was also taught by law.
Through the law, Jesus said that nobody can become perfect, due to the repressed memories of darkness; knowledge of sin. The only way to become perfect by law, would be to teach only the good side of law, and not teach the dark side of law. But that approach is not how law or knowledge of good and evil work, since law is a 2-D polarizing grid of light on darkness, with darkness, learned, with willful repression, the goal. Repression then creates impulse.
Fast forward to Revelations, there is a war in heaven and Satan and his angels are thrown from Heaven. This changing of the guard in Heaven, occurs after both the Old and New Testament, though the time of Jesus on earth. It symbolizes what had been condoned by God, Satan and law, but not directly commanded by God, was no longer condoned in Heaven. Heaven is now back to square one; Adam and Eve, before law of good and evil. Morally neutral and integrated by instinct; tree of life.
When Law and Satan are no longer condoned in Heaven, heavenly law separates into two piles; all the learned good and all the learned evil divides into two piles. Satan and law both undergo metamorphosis, into Jesus and the Devil. Jesus, by definition is all the good. He is perfection in terms of the good of the law, without any of the the shadow of the dark side of law, or else he would be defined as shades of light gray. The dark side of law, also consolidates and is now personified as a more evolved version of Santa, called the Devil. Law divides into two separate piles, with each pile consolidating into the perfect good and the perfect evil.
Neither Good or Evil could find perfection under law, since the other side of law, would also be learned and repressed; by good and evil people, to create shades of gray, within both good and evil. But once law separates into two perfect piles, Satan is thrown from heaven, shades of gray disappear, and both good and evil are perfected.
Heaven and Hell is not based on shades of gray; law, but on the polarization and separation of good and evil into their two idealized piles of perfection. Purgatory is more like shades of gray. The Devil is perfectly evil, just as Jesus is perfectly good. Law was useful in the sense, that the contrast with evil; dark background, allowed good to become differentiated and conscious. But since we also need to learn the dark side and then try to repress it; here are a hundred ways to steal but do not steal, the repressed evil taints the good, so perfection never happens.
Revelations warns the earth, after Satan is thrown from heaven to earth, about Satan=Devil, has great wrath since his time is short. This quote suggests a time delay, when the decision is made in Heaven to boot Satan and Law and then divide law into two piles, and when humans finally realize that there are no longer shades of gray, for a legal loophole to heaven. There is business as usual on earth, but not in Heaven.
The influence of perfect evil, using law, becomes manifest as the dark side making law, that appear to be shades of gray, but which come from perfect evil; have the keys to hell. The righteous man living by faith, also shows what humans think they know as good and evil, was not always objective, and therefore is not how the two piles will necessarily separate in Heaven. It is not how man defines law or good and evil, but how good things naturally integrate humans.
Faith becomes important since it gives one hunches as to what is the perfect good, which may go against what you were taught, by the law, as good or evil.
The main example is the paradox is how the second coming of Jesus, who is perfectly good, comes as a warrior God, doing what is often considered dark things; death and destruction. This might be seen as evil based on Satan and human traditions of law and knowledge of good and evil. How can the lamb become a Lion and remain perfectly good? The lion has to kill to eat and thereby helps to maintain its eco-system balance. This neutral but could be defined as evil by some. But in the biggest picture of things, this action integrates many things. The Devil will create confusion to integrate perfect evil. The uninstall process is very confusing, so one needs to flow, until the two piles separate inside your own mind; settings retained for the install process.
Last edited:
You illustrate the dilemma all Abrahamic theists have, and that is the huge diversity of interpretation and meaning asignments that are very inconsistent. The take away is that none of it beievable.
Right, the kingdom is located in Heaven - Please notice Revelation 20:4-6 because co-rulers govern with Christ in Heaven.
So, 'yes' his kingdom is not of 'this world' (Earth). 1st Cor. 15:24-26 shows what Jesus will accomplish for Earth.
There is No death in Heaven, No tombs, No one goes to Heaven to die in Heaven. The death problem exists here on Earth.
Please notice what Jesus does to 'enemy death ' at 1st Cor. 15:26.
Death ends on Earth - Isaiah 25:8
Right ' dust to dust ' Genesis 3:19
Resurrection does Not depend on one's dust, but rather being in God's memory. His book of life.
The soul that sins dies. A sinning soul is a dead soul - Ezekiel 18:4,20; Acts 3:23
Adam was a living soul and at death Adam became a dead soul. - Gen 2:7
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Why would a benevolent God do that?
Courts of law do not pat murderers and rapist on the head and cure them of their vices, so why should God do that?
The fact that God could do that because He is omnipotent is completely irrelevant. Why should He?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That is not a dilemma for me, since I know which interpretation is accurate.
The takeaway is that only one is believable.
Apostle John
“Go ahead, look up Revelation 6”
I don’t know why you’ve said it’s a big if. I see hell as a certainty for non-Christians. The Bible says many will end up in hell. I would imagine at the very least, 5% go to heaven. What is certain according to the Bible, hell will be the most populated.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I see hell as a certainty for selfish people who committed evil acts. It has nothing to do with whether they were Christians or not.
Wrong place / wrong time like the twin towers at 9/11, or those at the tower of Siloam - Luke 13:4-5; Ecclesiastes 9:11.
I like the advice found at Ecclesiastes 7:17
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That is true. Physical death only exists here on Earth.
1st Cor. 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c]
The Resurrection Body
35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.1 Corinthians 15 says that there are two different kinds of bodies:
--- The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.
--- For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies, which are different.
Physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God which is in Heaven. Dead bodies cannot inherit what will last forever, Heaven. Our physical bodies will die and we will be raised (resurrected) as spiritual bodies that will be suited to go to Heaven and live forever. That is what the following verses say.
1 Corinthians 15 New Living Translation
40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.
44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.
50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.
51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!
54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]
Read full chapter
Spiritual death will end eventually, after the Kingdom of God comes to Earth, but physical death will never end. It will always be with us.
Apostle John
“Go ahead, look up Revelation 6”
No disrespect but I think you’re one that follows one of those false religions that go nowhere.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
A dead soul is a soul that does not have spiritual life. Spiritual life is eternal life, which is nearness to God.
The soul that sins dies because it does not have eternal life.
No soul ever ceases to exist because the soul is immortal.
Souls who are not near to God will continue to exist after the body dies but they will not have eternal life.
I suppose one could say Jesus was a non-Christian while under the Mosaic Law (Romans 10:4) because dead Jesus went to hell - Acts 2:27
Jesus' ransom covers MANY according to Matthew 20:28
Everyone in biblical hell ends up 'delivered up' ( resurrected) out of biblical hell, then, emptied-out hell/grave is cast empty into that symbolic lake of fire defined as the ' second death ' for vacated un-populated biblical hell.
Wicked people end up, Not in any hell, but the wicked are ' destroyed forever ' according to Psalms 92:7; 104:35; Proverbs 2:21-22
Yes, only a ' little flock ' go to Heaven because they are like the people described at Luke 22:28-30; Daniel 7:18 who are called to be saints/holy ones.
Jesus' ' other sheep ' can be part of the humble meek people who will inherit the Earth as Jesus promised - Matt.5:5 from Psalm 37:9-11.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You are free to believe whatever you want to believe since you have free will.
No disrespect but I think you are following a religion of a past dispensation.
Dispensation
- the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
- an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
- a divinely appointed order or age:
Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com
Since humanity has now entered a new age, the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is no longer through the Christian dispensation.
I don't think Jesus was a selfish person who committed evil acts, yet the day righteous Jesus died he went to hell - Acts 2:27
Not to some religious-myth hell teaching, but biblical hell the temporary stone-cold grave for the 'sleeping dead' - Acts 24:15
The dead Rest In Peace (R.I.P.) Even the word cemetery means: sleeping place.- Psalm 115:17
Yes, since Abel people go to hell because 'biblical hell' is the grave until Resurrection Day.
Resurrection Day meaning: Jesus' coming Millennium-Long Day governing over Earth for a thousand years - John 6:40,44