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If you believe in God AND evolution, why do you believe in God?

Dan From Smithville

For the World Is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky
Staff member
Premium Member
I believe in God. I accept and actually embrace science, so I don't doubt evolution. However, since we're all talking about it, perhaps you or someone can update us on the actual status of the science of evolution, what is the current evidence? No, I'm not doubting evolution per se at all, I am merely seeking to determine what the actual evidence is as any true scientist would. I agree, this is science and not a matter of belief with no material evidence, so it's natural for scientists to want the evidence and that's why they have been digging for decades. What is the status?
I'm with you. I believe in God and I accept the theory of evolution. Accepting the theory of evolution doesn't mean a believer has some obligation to explain their faith. If you are engaging a Christian mechanic to work on your car, there is no obligation that the mechanic must explain their belief in order to assess their mechanical ability or permit them to work on the car. To me it seems to be another attempt to reject science and challenge the validity of Christians that accept science.

Accepting science doesn't invalidate faith no matter what some people might claim. What I believe is that we do not understand the Bible enough to have come to the best interpretation of scripture despite those all-seeing, all-knowing groups that believe otherwise.

You aren't asking for much. :)

Besides the ever-increasing fossil record, there is evidence found in numerous scientific disciplines. Geology provides us with dating of the strata in which fossils are found. Which is based on work from physics and chemistry. Paleontology provides an interpretation of the fossil record and extends it back 3.8 billion years. Genetics and molecular biology provides evidence and explanation for the particulate basis of inheritance, mutations, relationships between groups and changes in the genes of populations over time. As well, population biology expands on that to further demonstrate those changes and put them in the context of the environment. Physiology presents different evidence to establish relationships between groups of species as well as differentiating the popular notion of adaptation from genetic adaptation that occurs with evolution. Ecology helps us better understand the relationships between living organisms and their environments demonstrating mechanisms of change in action like that demonstrated in one of my favorite papers. https://hoekstra.oeb.harvard.edu/files/hoekstra/files/barrett2019sci.pdf

While attacking Darwin seems to be a creationist pass time, no doubt spurred by a view that Darwin is akin to a religious prophet or holy man. His contribution to science was tremendous, but after 150 years, his relevancy is confined to history and the study of biology and evolution has moved well on. But it is important to mention that a significant portion of On the Origin of Species as dedicated to evidence supporting the theory. And since that time so much evidence has been further accumulated that the theory of evolution is the most well-evidence theory in science. To repeat that the evidence simply isn't there is wishful thinking driven by a desire to overturn the theory for reasons other than scientific.

The evidence is simply to voluminous to do it justice by trying to describe it in a few paragraphs. Suffice it to say that practically every field in biology, including applied fields is touched by the theory and in turn has provided evidence supporting the theory.

I will close with mention of a few important examples of the theory including the use of it to make predictions. In the early 2000's, Neil Shubin and his team were able to find fossils of Tiktaalik, a lobe finned fish with derived features of later tetrapods. https://www.stuartsumida.com/BIOL524/DaeschlerEtAl2006.pdf

If you are interested in more evidence, it can be found in work on the ice nucleating protein of notothenioid fish of Antarctic seas https://www.pnas.org/doi/pdf/10.1073/pnas.0603796103, the cichlid super flock of species from Lake Victoria in Africa, lactose persistence in humans (this also demonstrates convergent evolution by the way), whale fossils and whale evolution from the work of Philip Gingerich https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/48501/ID352.pdf, the co-evolution of newts and garter snakes in the Pacific Northwest https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdfdirect/10.1111/j.0014-3820.2002.tb00132.x

I could go on, and perhaps when I have more time I will, but there is an abundance of evidence supporting the theory evidence by the millions of papers that have been published on the subject.
 

Dan From Smithville

For the World Is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky
Staff member
Premium Member
As you seem to know, this thread is about why people believe in God.

So, I answered that. It entails a hope beyond what we know and that God is in charge and has the answer and that we are not just a clump of temporary matter. You arrived on planet earth beyond your control. You have no clue, just poof, here you are on planet earth. So no clue how got here, yet so sure nothing after? Not scientific.
It isn't just about that. It is about belief in God in the context of accepting science. Some organizations encourage their members to reject science or at least the science the organization feels conflicts with their specific ideology.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Hmmm. I acknowledged poor wording on my part, admitted to not having a command of Buddhist scripture (so no need for guessing on your part) and tried to explain what prompted my poor word choice. If that is not sufficient, so be it. :)
It's not about poor wording. It's about addressing the question.

I'll tell you one point specifically because you completely ignored every single thing I mentioned.

How does evolution account for punarbhava. The Buddha was supposedly born and reborn a 100,000 times or kalpa laksa. Let's say he lived each life for 30 years. That would be three million years. Homo sapiens are "supposedly" on earth for 300,000 years. So in what form did the Bodhisattva exist for 2.7 million years prior to Homo sapiens?

I am going with your own TOE. Now could you answer specifically? Because you see, it was you who made the compatibility claim, and this is only one of the questions.

Cheers.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I think that I see the problem. When I say it is better that we must believe, that is because what we see in the physical world that we can know, we also know has not satisfied our needs, otherwise we would cease searching.
I'm basically out of this discussing in responding to everybody, but what you say resonates with me. While I did not believe there is a God for a long time, I have come to terms that there is a God, a Supreme one and I am much better because of that.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It isn't just about that. It is about belief in God in the context of accepting science. Some organizations encourage their members to reject science or at least the science the organization feels conflicts with their specific ideology.
Actually that is not my conceptual question. Specifically the point is about evolution and God, not science and God. Although I'm sure you would say that evolution is part of science, or maybe science, but again--the initial question is not about science and God. It's about evolution and God, and what reasons a person that believes in--accepts--both evolution and God has to accept(?) --believe in??-- God. There's more to science than evolution. So the question is not about science and God, but why a person who accepts the teaching of evolution, or whatever one wants to call it -- theory--fact--truth--believes in God. So far -- few have offered any answer. Some have, whether I agree with them or not is not the issue for me in this thread. It may be for others, but that is not the original question.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You asked: The question is, if you believe in God AND evolution, why do you believe in God?

I don't believe in evolution, which is why I said:

I accept evolution as a scientific fact, I don't have to 'believe' in evolution.

You asked: why do you believe in God?

I answered that.

I believe in God because of Baha'u'llah. That's the foundation of my belief.
I never believed in God before I was a Baha'i because I had no reason to believe in God.
God was just a word to me.
I hate to ask this, but I will. What's the difference in accepting evolution as opposed to believing in the theory or idea. I'm not questioning your belief in God right now, I have no desire to at this point anyway. But I am wondering what you feel the difference is in reference to accepting the theory of evolution as opposed to believing in it. It's almost like saying you accept a vaccine but don't believe in it.
 

Dan From Smithville

For the World Is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky
Staff member
Premium Member
Actually that is not my conceptual question. Specifically the point is about evolution and God, not science and God.
The theory of evolution is science.
Although I'm sure you would say that evolution is part of science, or maybe science,
You are correct. I can't imagine how it isn't.
but again--the initial question is not about science and God. It's about evolution and God, and what reasons a person that believes in--accepts--both evolution and God has to accept(?) --believe in??-- God.
I'm not sure what difference accepting a scientific theory makes regarding belief in God. I haven't had any reason to worry about it.
There's more to science than evolution.
But it is a significant feature of life and the study of life.
So the question is not about science and God, but why a person who accepts the teaching of evolution, or whatever one wants to call it -- theory--fact--truth--believes in God.
As I've said, there is no reason that a person cannot study, learn, understand, practice and accept science and believe in God. That some cannot conceive of this is on them I would say.
So far -- few have offered any answer. Some have, whether I agree with them or not is not the issue for me in this thread. It may be for others, but that is not the original question.
You have to admit, it is a question that seems to be targeting a specific group for reasons yet to be revealed. That and the relevance of a need to explain belief by those that accept science, when there is no compelling reason that is needed. I don't aske the plumber how he can practice plumbing and believe in God when I'm talking about plumbing. I don't see the relevance of demanding to have a person explain their beliefs in the context of a discussion of science.

And to ask such believers to provide a rational explanation for belief in God when no such explanation can exist, since the evidence of God is not objectively available to anyone.

I remain skeptical of the value of this thread and the need to explain that belief due to the acceptance of science. I don't see threads for those that accept germ theory or plate tectonics.
 
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Dan From Smithville

For the World Is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky
Staff member
Premium Member
Actually that is not my conceptual question. Specifically the point is about evolution and God, not science and God.
The theory of evolution is science.
Although I'm sure you would say that evolution is part of science, or maybe science,
You are correct. I can't imagine how it isn't.
but again--the initial question is not about science and God. It's about evolution and God, and what reasons a person that believes in--accepts--both evolution and God has to accept(?) --believe in??-- God.
I'm not sure what difference accepting a scientific theory makes regarding belief in God. I've had any reason to worry about it.
There's more to science than evolution.
But it is a significant feature of life and the study of life.
So the question is not about science and God, but why a person who accepts the teaching of evolution, or whatever one wants to call it -- theory--fact--truth--believes in God.
As I've said, there is no reason that a person cannot study, learn, understand, practice and accept science and believe in God. That some cannot conceive of this is on them I would say.
So far -- few have offered any answer. Some have, whether I agree with them or not is not the issue for me in this thread. It may be for others, but that is not the original question.
You have to admit, it is a question that seems to be targeting a specific group for reasons yet to be revealed. That and the relevance of a need to explain belief by those that accept science, when there is no compelling reason that is needed. I don't aske the plumber how he can practice plumbing and believe in God when I'm talking about plumbing. I don't see the relevance of demanding to have a person explain their beliefs in the context of a discussion of science.

And to ask such believers to provide a rational explanation for belief in God when no such explanation can exist, since the evidence of God is not objectively available to anyone.

I remain skeptical of the value of this thread and the need to explain that belief due to the acceptance of science. I don't see threads for those that accept germ theory or plate tectonics.
 
It's not about poor wording. It's about addressing the question.

I'll tell you one point specifically because you completely ignored every single thing I mentioned.

How does evolution account for punarbhava. The Buddha was supposedly born and reborn a 100,000 times or kalpa laksa. Let's say he lived each life for 30 years. That would be three million years. Homo sapiens are "supposedly" on earth for 300,000 years. So in what form did the Bodhisattva exist for 2.7 million years prior to Homo sapiens?

I am going with your own TOE. Now could you answer specifically? Because you see, it was you who made the compatibility claim, and this is only one of the questions.

Cheers.

:) So when I said:

To answer your specific question, I do not see the ToE explaining any aspect of Buddhist philosophy, but I am admittedly no expert in either Buddhism or evolutionary biology.

In post# 196, that wasn't sufficient?
 

Dan From Smithville

For the World Is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky
Staff member
Premium Member
But the ToE is very specifically about species and whether and how they may change over time.

Given what you have provided, my take on it would be that the scientific ToE does not conflict with, or is at least compatible with Buddhist philosophy. But in evaluating whether Buddhist philosophy speaks directly to biological evolution, I have yet to see any reference to a specific Buddhist theory of Speciation with accompanying explanitory mechanisms. As such, I would not include it in a history of evolutionary thought.
I've read that some Buddhist thinking views the theory of evolution as consistent with the precepts of Buddhism.

Being consistent or compatible doesn't mean that the theory explains Buddhism or aspects of the religion or is intended to. To me it means you can practice Buddhism and accept the theory without conflict. But it seems some people think that is what compatible means and it must explain aspects of the religion.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
You may see that as relating to ideas of transmuting or evolving species and thus a valid precursor to the Theory of Evolution, but I, personally, find it a stretch.
The scientific theory of evolution begins in proper (with testable propositions and predictions) with Darwin and Wallace. But it can be said that the doctrine of immutability of species is contrary to Buddhist philosophy. In a Buddhist worldview, all material structures of the universe, including the living forms is expected to change over time and not be in stasis. So an evolutionary theory of biology and a dynamic but sncient universe is in sync with expectations of such a worldview.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The theory of evolution is science.

You are correct. I can't imagine how it isn't.

I'm not sure what difference accepting a scientific theory makes regarding belief in God. I've had any reason to worry about it.

But it is a significant feature of life and the study of life.

As I've said, there is no reason that a person cannot study, learn, understand, practice and accept science and believe in God. That some cannot conceive of this is on them I would say.

You have to admit, it is a question that seems to be targeting a specific group for reasons yet to be revealed. That and the relevance of a need to explain belief by those that accept science, when there is no compelling reason that is needed. I don't aske the plumber how he can practice plumbing and believe in God when I'm talking about plumbing. I don't see the relevance of demanding to have a person explain their beliefs in the context of a discussion of science.

And to ask such believers to provide a rational explanation for belief in God when no such explanation can exist, since the evidence of God is not objectively available to anyone.

I remain skeptical of the value of this thread and the need to explain that belief due to the acceptance of science. I don't see threads for those that accept germ theory or plate tectonics.
There are other sciences or folds of science besides evolution. Science is not only evolution.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Still little to nothing from many claiming to believe in God and evolution as to why they believe in God.
 

Dan From Smithville

For the World Is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky
Staff member
Premium Member
There are other sciences or folds of science besides evolution. Science is not only evolution.
No one has claimed that the theory of evolution is the only science. Nor does mention of other sciences have any impact on the scientific validity of the theory.

I don't know where you are going with this.
 

Dan From Smithville

For the World Is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky
Staff member
Premium Member
Still little to nothing from many claiming to believe in God and evolution as to why they believe in God.
I still don't understand the connection you seem to feel exists between belief in God and and accepting scientific theories.

Are you trying say something about those that believe in God and accept science?
 

Dan From Smithville

For the World Is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky
Staff member
Premium Member
Still little to nothing from many claiming to believe in God and evolution as to why they believe in God.
Is it just the theory of evolution or is acceptance of other theories in science relevant to belief in God?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
No one has claimed that the theory of evolution is the only science. Nor does mention of other sciences have any impact on the scientific validity of the theory.

I don't know where you are going with this.
See, we keep going back to evolution when that is not the question. The question is, more or less a rephrase: why does a person believe in God if he also believes in evolution? It's not about evolution -- the question implies it's not about evolution, but really what reasons does a person have for believing in God (if he also believes in evolution). It's not about evolution or science. It's asking what reasons a person has to believe in God. (Not evolution)
 
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