If you can't believe.....

[InChrist]

I think the part that confuses a lot of non-believers is that, if god is capable of making us free of faults, why didn't he just do that to begin with? Also confusing to me is why would you trust someone who screwed up the first time to get everything "perfect" the second time around?

According to the scriptures God did make the first humans free of faults to begin with, yet with the capacity to choose to trust His wisdom and obey Him as their Creator. It was a lack of human trust the first time around which brought about disobedience and sin that screwed everything up. It seems pretty simple to me that humans really mess things up when trying to live in an estranged state apart from God.

 

[Unification]

If you can't believe in what cannot be proven.....
What are you doing here in a religious forum?

Wishful thinking?.....in the hope no rational can present God?

It can't be proven by anything physical or natural. The conditioned mind blocks it from happening. Mankind blocks it from happening. The barrier is the mind. There is a difference between thinking/having faith and knowing. The only way to know the unknowable by nature is meditation. Closing the mind completely. The spirit within. Inner self. Conscious and awareness comes. For any human who purely seeks.

 

[Unification]

According to the scriptures God did make the first humans free of faults to begin with, yet with the capacity to choose to trust His wisdom and obey Him as their Creator. It was a lack of human trust the first time around which brought about disobedience and sin that screwed everything up. It seems pretty simple to me that humans really mess things up when trying to live in an estranged state apart from God.

Mankind chose knowledge.

 

[InChrist]

If God wanted everyone to hear, wouldn't it be easier for God to do something miraculous, or just show up and make himself known?

I'm not sure it actually works very well that way, human nature being what it is. The scriptures testify that God did something miraculous, showing up Himself in the Person of Jesus Christ (Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? John 14:9), healing the sick, demonstrating power over nature, conquering death by rising from the grave. Even then with miracles and God Himself not everyone listened or wanted to pay attention.

 

[InChrist]

Mankind chose knowledge.

That's not the way I see it or think the scriptures portray it. Mankind chose to disobey one single rule because they determined to trust their own inadequate knowledge, rather than the eternal knowledge and perfect wisdom of God.

 

[Unification]

That's not the way I see it or think the scriptures portray it. Mankind chose to disobey one single rule because they determined to trust their own inadequate knowledge, rather than the eternal knowledge and perfect wisdom of God.

I always saw it that way too, until I realized that wasn't "just" to punish the world for others' actions. . And that it was mankinds "inadequate knowledge" who teaches such. Definitely agree on trusting the inadequate knowledge though. We can get the perfect wisdom and knowledge of understanding by seeking the Spirit within to teach us and shut our minds off, because the mind is the barrier, the roadblock to that, all of its conditioning. Many blessings to you.

 

[InChrist]

I always saw it that way too, until I realized that wasn't "just" to punish the world for others' actions. . And that it was mankinds "inadequate knowledge" who teaches such. Definitely agree on trusting the inadequate knowledge though. We can get the perfect wisdom and knowledge of understanding by seeking the Spirit within to teach us and shut our minds off, because the mind is the barrier, the roadblock to that, all of its conditioning. Many blessings to you.

Blessings to you also and thanks for your thoughts. In Isaiah, God does say, "Come let us reason together" , so I see the importance of making a conscious choice to submit one's mind to the Spirit and renewing one's mind ...But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior...Titus 3:4-6

 

[Thief]

It can't be proven by anything physical or natural. The conditioned mind blocks it from happening. Mankind blocks it from happening. The barrier is the mind. There is a difference between thinking/having faith and knowing. The only way to know the unknowable by nature is meditation. Closing the mind completely. The spirit within. Inner self. Conscious and awareness comes. For any human who purely seeks.

and yet, the only way to be sure of anything....
is to make up your mind about it.

I cannot agree an empty head is functional.

 

[Unification]

and yet, the only way to be sure of anything....
is to make up your mind about it.

I cannot agree an empty head is functional.

An empty head is functional. An empty head seeking the Spirit is different. The natural, carnal mind changes to awareness, a higher state of consciousness. Regular knowledge and intelligence is transformed to knowledge and wisdom in a spiritual manner. If the empty conscious mind is seeking anything other than God, it won't find God.

 

[Thief]

An empty head is functional. An empty head seeking the Spirit is different. The natural, carnal mind changes to awareness, a higher state of consciousness. Regular knowledge and intelligence is transformed to knowledge and wisdom in a spiritual manner. If the empty conscious mind is seeking anything other than God, it won't find God.

reminds me of the GNG routine.

I suppose I could slide your way a little bit.....
a used wine bottle cannot be used again.....it would burst.

(that's if you know bottles made of skin)

 

[McBell]

Right...you don't see the line drawn.....you don't have sight of it.
no faith in what you can't see.

There is no line drawn.
At least, not outside your imagination.

Again, what is it you claim I have no faith in?
You have always ran tail tucked from this question.
Why is that?

 

[Cephus]

I'm not sure it actually works very well that way, human nature being what it is. The scriptures testify that God did something miraculous, showing up Himself in the Person of Jesus Christ (Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? John 14:9), healing the sick, demonstrating power over nature, conquering death by rising from the grave. Even then with miracles and God Himself not everyone listened or wanted to pay attention.

Well, there's no reason to take any of those claims seriously so I don't know that it matters.

 

[InChrist]

Well, there's no reason to take any of those claims seriously so I don't know that it matters.

Whether to take such claims seriously is up to you, but if they are true, then I take the position that it really does matter not just in the present, but eternally.

 

[Cephus]

Whether to take such claims seriously is up to you, but if they are true, then I take the position that it really does matter not just in the present, but eternally.

You can take whatever position you want, I'm only concerned with what you can prove. There are people who take all kinds of absurd positions, they're still wrong.

 

[Unification]

Well, there's no reason to take any of those claims seriously so I don't know that it matters.

 

[Unification]

May I ask what does matter to a relentless rationalist's life?

 

[JustWondering]

According to the scriptures God did make the first humans free of faults to begin with, yet with the capacity to choose to trust His wisdom and obey Him as their Creator. It was a lack of human trust the first time around which brought about disobedience and sin that screwed everything up. It seems pretty simple to me that humans really mess things up when trying to live in an estranged state apart from God.

How could we be "perfect" if we screwed up so badly so quickly? That's like an engineer who designs a car that's "perfect" until it's driven for 100 miles or so and then catastrophically breaks down. The engineer can point his finger all day long at the car itself or the person who drove it and blame them for the car not being "perfect" anymore. However, I would argue that the car was never perfect and any glaring defects with the car are the fault of its designers incompetence. Seriously, if someone designs/builds something that doesn't work as intended who is blamed? The builder or the creation?

 

[Thief]

There is no line drawn.
At least, not outside your imagination.

Again, what is it you claim I have no faith in?
You have always ran tail tucked from this question.
Why is that?

As posted a moment ago in another thread.

My reality is separate of me.
The sun will rise without me.

It will rise without you.

I will probably go on from here.
Not so sure about you......

 

[Thief]

You can take whatever position you want, I'm only concerned with what you can prove. There are people who take all kinds of absurd positions, they're still wrong.

That includes yourself.....or are you wrong?

 

[Theweirdtophat]

There's very few things we're really certain of in this universe. A lot of our scientific theories will be obsolete in the future as it will be replaced with more convincing theories. I don't really think it's an impossible notion that there are possibly god-like cosmic entities that shape or help inhabitant of planets. None us will know the answer anytime soon so both sides should stop pretending to know they have the answer when they really don't anymore than the next person.