If you claim any sort of belief in the Bible--

[Kenny]

A change in course is not the same thing as a change in heart. Paul's character was evidenced by his cursing of those who did not agree with his doctrine and his defamation of Moses.

Couldn’t locate the defamation… can you help?

 

[Ebionite]

Couldn’t locate the defamation… can you help?

And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2 Corinthians 3:13

 

[Kenny]

And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2 Corinthians 3:13

I don’t see any defamation there. Seems more like a history of what happened

 

[Spice]

I don’t see any defamation there. Seems more like a history of what happened

Look at a little more of the passage from the Amplified Bible for modern day clarity:


12Since we have such a [glorious] hope and confident expectation, we speak with great courage, 13and we are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the Israelites would not gaze at the end of the glory which was fading away. 14But [in fact] their minds were hardened [for they had lost the ability to understand]; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed [only] in Christ. 15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil [of blindness] lies over their heart;

 

[Ebionite]

I don’t see any defamation there. Seems more like a history of what happened

The actual reason that Moses wore the veil was that the people were afraid. The idea that he wore it to deceive is pure fiction.

 

[Kenny]

Look at a little more of the passage from the Amplified Bible for modern day clarity:


12Since we have such a [glorious] hope and confident expectation, we speak with great courage, 13and we are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the Israelites would not gaze at the end of the glory which was fading away. 14But [in fact] their minds were hardened [for they had lost the ability to understand]; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed [only] in Christ. 15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil [of blindness] lies over their heart;

Yes! He isn’t demeaning Moses as he also said,

Romans 7:12
So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

But what was meant for life just cemented the reality of our humanness producing death through sin.

 

[Kenny]

The actual reason that Moses wore the veil was that the people were afraid. The idea that he wore it to deceive is pure fiction.

Yes… that was the beginning of the reason. But the portion about deceiving depends on your viewpoint. Another person interprets it this way:

When 2 Corinthians 3:13 is read in the context of Paul’s total argument, we find that it says nothing about Moses’ motive for veiling his face.

In 2 Corinthians 3, Paul is contrasting the glories of the Old and New Covenants, and he concludes that the New Covenant is far more glorious.

• The Old Covenant was written on tablets of stone; the New Covenant is written on the heart (verse 3).
• The Old Covenant is the letter of the Law, while the New Covenant is of the Spirit. The letter kills but the Spirit gives life (verse 6).
• The Old Covenant brings condemnation; the New Covenant brings righteousness (verse 9).
• The Old Covenant had a glory that faded; the New Covenant has a glory that remains and in fact so far surpasses it that the Old Covenant appears to have no glory by comparison (verses 10–11).

Why did Moses have to wear a veil? | GotQuestions.org

Why did Moses have to wear a veil? Why did Moses’ face shine so brightly that he had to wear a veil?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[Spice]

Yes… that was the beginning of the reason. But the portion about deceiving depends on your viewpoint. Another person interprets it this way:

When 2 Corinthians 3:13 is read in the context of Paul’s total argument, we find that it says nothing about Moses’ motive for veiling his face.

In 2 Corinthians 3, Paul is contrasting the glories of the Old and New Covenants, and he concludes that the New Covenant is far more glorious.

• The Old Covenant was written on tablets of stone; the New Covenant is written on the heart (verse 3).
• The Old Covenant is the letter of the Law, while the New Covenant is of the Spirit. The letter kills but the Spirit gives life (verse 6).
• The Old Covenant brings condemnation; the New Covenant brings righteousness (verse 9).
• The Old Covenant had a glory that faded; the New Covenant has a glory that remains and in fact so far surpasses it that the Old Covenant appears to have no glory by comparison (verses 10–11).

Why did Moses have to wear a veil? | GotQuestions.org

Why did Moses have to wear a veil? Why did Moses’ face shine so brightly that he had to wear a veil?

www.gotquestions.org

But do you see it conveyed in a loving, Christian way? It is necessary to say someone else's way is wrong in order to present a new way?

There are some good passages in Paul's epistles, but overall, he does not raise up Jesus's mission message above his own ideas.

 

[Kenny]

But do you see it conveyed in a loving, Christian way? It is necessary to say someone else's way is wrong in order to present a new way?

There are some good passages in Paul's epistles, but overall, he does not raise up Jesus's mission message above his own ideas.

I don’t see it as “someone else’s way is wrong”. As I mentioned to Ebonite, Paul also says Romans 7:12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

That hardly gives the connotation that it is wrong.

When taking it all into context, it is simply explaining that the New Testament is based on better promises. That’s all.

 

[Koberstein]

Would you say that Jesus was born as a Jew and after he died was preached to others beyond the Jews? Remember -- IF you claim any sort of belief in the Bible -- if you don't, no need for you to answer. Thanks.

I believe Yeshua Hamashiach was born a Jew and was crucified for the sins of the world which includes Jews and Gentiles. Salvation is of the Jews. The Bible is a Jewish book written entirely by Jews and for Jews initially in the land of the Jews Isra'el.
Shalom

 

[Koberstein]

Thanks!

Your experience is similar to many in Catholicism…. They’re not taught to use the Bible, but rather just adhere to traditions & rites, all the while listening to stuff spoken in a language they don’t understand.

Religion — most of it anyway — is a racket, a way to fleece the pockets of people! And these poor people get nothing useful out of it!

It’s obvious why Jehovah’s gonna have it destroyed. - Rev.17&18

I am a Messianic Jew . I study the Old and the New Covenant with my Messianic Jewish Bible. I also study the Jewish Didache.
I love Messianic music. I discovered my Jewish roots 12 years ago.
Baruch Hashem Adonai
Shalom

 

[Ebionite]

Yes… that was the beginning of the reason. But the portion about deceiving depends on your viewpoint. Another person interprets it this way:

When 2 Corinthians 3:13 is read in the context of Paul’s total argument, we find that it says nothing about Moses’ motive for veiling his face.

In 2 Corinthians 3, Paul is contrasting the glories of the Old and New Covenants, and he concludes that the New Covenant is far more glorious.

• The Old Covenant was written on tablets of stone; the New Covenant is written on the heart (verse 3).
• The Old Covenant is the letter of the Law, while the New Covenant is of the Spirit. The letter kills but the Spirit gives life (verse 6).
• The Old Covenant brings condemnation; the New Covenant brings righteousness (verse 9).
• The Old Covenant had a glory that faded; the New Covenant has a glory that remains and in fact so far surpasses it that the Old Covenant appears to have no glory by comparison (verses 10–11).

Why did Moses have to wear a veil? | GotQuestions.org

Why did Moses have to wear a veil? Why did Moses’ face shine so brightly that he had to wear a veil?

www.gotquestions.org

Standard Christian apologetics. There is nothing in the context of 2 Corinthians 3:13 that would change verse's meaning about Moses' intent.

Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.
2 Corinthians 3:12-14

 

[Kenny]

Standard Christian apologetics. There is nothing in the context of 2 Corinthians 3:13 that would change verse's meaning about Moses' intent.

Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.
2 Corinthians 3:12-14

Standard as opposed to “out of context”?

Let’s look at other translations:

2 Corinthians 3:12-14 New International Version
12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull,for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.

2 Corinthians 3:12-14 The Voice
12 In light of this hope that we have, we act with great confidence and speak with great courage. 13 We do not act like Moses who covered his face with a veil so the children of Israel would not stare as the glory of God faded from his face. 14 Their minds became as hard as stones; for up to this day when they read the old covenant, the same veil continues to hide that glory; this veil is lifted only through the Anointed One.

No anti-Moses statement.

 

[Ebionite]

No anti-Moses statement.

You're in denial. There wasn't anything in the context that would affect the meaning, either.

"to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away"
"so the children of Israel would not stare as the glory of God faded from his face."

The actual reason, as you have been told, is that Moses wore the veil because they were afraid.

 

[Kenny]

You're in denial.

Interesting statement.

There wasn't anything in the context that would affect the meaning, either.

"to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away"
"so the children of Israel would not stare as the glory of God faded from his face."

The actual reason, as you have been told, is that Moses wore the veil because they were afraid.

It’s not one or the other but both. There are many historical events, like the order by God to sacrifice Isaac, that has two meanings.

I still see no Anti-Moses statement

 

[Ebionite]

It’s not one or the other but both.

No, the only reason to think that Moses deceived the children of Israel is because of what Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 3:13. It's absurd to think that Moses wore the veil both because the children of Israel were afraid and because he wanted to deceive them about his appearance.

Given Paul's opposition to the law of Moses and the other evidence of Paul's dishonesty (eg Romans 3:7) , the simplest explanation is that Paul was lying about Moses in order to make his own position appear to be more credible.

If you're looking for meaning about Paul, the the logical place to look is to the prophets.

Surely the Lord YHWH will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
Amos 3:7

And YHWH said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd.
For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, [which] shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.
Zechariah 11:15-16

Shepherds that eat the flesh are described in Ezekiel:

Thus saith the Lord YHWH; Behold, I [am] against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.
Ezekiel 34:10

 

[Kenny]

No, the only reason to think that Moses deceived the children of Israel is because of what Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 3:13. It's absurd to think that Moses wore the veil both because the children of Israel were afraid and because he wanted to deceive them about his appearance.

Deceiving is your interpretation. I never took it that way and, apparently, Paul didn’t either.

Given Paul's opposition to the law of Moses and the other evidence of Paul's dishonesty (eg Romans 3:7) , the simplest explanation is that Paul was lying about Moses in order to make his own position appear to be more credible.

If you're looking for meaning about Paul, the the logical place to look is to the prophets.

Surely the Lord YHWH will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
Amos 3:7

And YHWH said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd.
For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, [which] shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.
Zechariah 11:15-16

Shepherds that eat the flesh are described in Ezekiel:

Thus saith the Lord YHWH; Behold, I [am] against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.
Ezekiel 34:10

Apparently you are living in the Old Testament

Hebrews 8:13
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Just like the face of Moses, the glory of the old faded away.

 

[Ebionite]

Deceiving is your interpretation. I never took it that way and, apparently, Paul didn’t either.

What possible alternative interpretation is there for Moses' intent according to the text of 2 Corinthians 2:13?

Apparently you are living in the Old Testament

The law of Moses in relevant of today's times:

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matthew 5:18

The prophecy of new Jerusalem has not been fulfilled, and that prophecy relates to a city in which animal sacrifice is still relevant.

But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord YHWH:
Ezekiel 44:15

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The law is still relevant in the new covenant of Jeremiah 31:

But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YHWH, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their Elohim, and they shall be my people.
Jeremiah 31:33

 

[YoursTrue]

No, the only reason to think that Moses deceived the children of Israel is because of what Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 3:13. It's absurd to think that Moses wore the veil both because the children of Israel were afraid and because he wanted to deceive them about his appearance.

Given Paul's opposition to the law of Moses and the other evidence of Paul's dishonesty (eg Romans 3:7) , the simplest explanation is that Paul was lying about Moses in order to make his own position appear to be more credible.

If you're looking for meaning about Paul, the the logical place to look is to the prophets.

Surely the Lord YHWH will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
Amos 3:7

And YHWH said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd.
For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, [which] shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.
Zechariah 11:15-16

Shepherds that eat the flesh are described in Ezekiel:

Thus saith the Lord YHWH; Behold, I [am] against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.
Ezekiel 34:10

Paul knew that adherence to Jewish law would not save anyone. In actuality, the only one who kept the Law perfectly that God gave was Jesus. Romans 8 helps to understand this, I believe: "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death."

 

[Ebionite]

Paul knew that adherence to Jewish law would not save anyone.

Really?

[If] the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Ezekiel 33:15

In actuality, the only one who kept the Law perfectly that God gave was Jesus.

Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Genesis 26:5

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.
Psalms 109:7

Because that he remembered not to shew mercy, but persecuted the poor and needy man, that he might even slay the broken in heart.
Psalms 109:16