If you claim any sort of belief in the Bible--

[YoursTrue]

Rejection of the law has been associated with divine punishment.

What law? Let's first answer that, ok?

 

[Ebionite]

What law? Let's first answer that, ok?

It's referenced in the context that you removed when you replied.

 

[Kenny]

Would you say that Jesus was born as a Jew and after he died was preached to others beyond the Jews? Remember -- IF you claim any sort of belief in the Bible -- if you don't, no need for you to answer. Thanks.

Absolutely!

The original design for the people of Israel, as I read it, was to be priests for all nations. That Abrahamic Covenant was for the blessing of all nations so indeed, the Gospel that was given to the Jews was to be a light for all ethnicities.

 

[YoursTrue]

All of humankind suffers.

I can offer some reasons why, but I wonder what you would say about why you say all of humankind suffers. That's #1. #2 is why it was said that Paul would suffer. He was a chosen vessel, filled with holy spirit. That's a blessing not a curse. Or punishment. And Ananias called him 'brother' after Jesus spoke with him in a vision to accept Saul as a chosen vessel to speak for Jesus.
My reminder is that Jesus taught his disciples to pray for God's kingdom to come to the earth as in heaven.

 

[YoursTrue]

No, Ananias didn't tell him that.


But not for the same reason.

Because that he remembered not to shew mercy, but persecuted the poor and needy man, that he might even slay the broken in heart.
Psalms 109:16


Rejection of the law has been associated with divine punishment.

And she hath changed my judgments into wickedness more than the nations, and my statutes more than the countries that [are] round about her: for they have refused my judgments and my statutes, they have not walked in them.
Therefore thus saith the Lord YHWH; Because ye multiplied more than the nations that [are] round about you, [and] have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my judgments, neither have done according to the judgments of the nations that [are] round about you;
Therefore thus saith the Lord YHWH; Behold, I, even I, [am] against thee, and will execute judgments in the midst of thee in the sight of the nations.
Ezekiel 5:6-8

Maybe I'm just not as learned as you are, nevertheless Paul was a "chosen vessel," called a 'brother' by Ananais, and was accepted and blessed (not cursed) by Jesus. The early Christians were said to be thrown to lions among other things. There were those in Israel when they had kings and priests in the flesh who deviated greatly from the law of Moses but were forgiven by God when they repented. Remember that?

 

[Ebionite]

Here is what the Bible says about this: (Acts 9)
"But Ananias answered, “Lord, many people have told me about this man and all the harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. 14And now he is here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on Your name.”
15“Go!” said the Lord. “This man is My chosen instrument to carry My name before the Gentiles and their kings, and before the people of Israel. 16I will show him how much he must suffer for My name.”
17So Ananias went to the house, and when he arrived, he placed his hands on Saul. “Brother Saul,” he said, “the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here, has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”
So--it says here that Saul (Paul) would be filled with the holy spirit, and he called Saul "Brother." I don't know what you think that means, but to me it means that Jesus Christ accepted Paul as a chosen, blessed vessel.

Jesus was described as righteous, meaning just. It is not just to bless someone who deserves to be suffer.

Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
Acts 9:13

From your text:

I will show him how much he must suffer for My name.

Accepting the report of Paul's evil and speaking of his future suffering is not consistent with being blessed and accepted.

 

[Ebionite]

and was accepted and blessed (not cursed) by Jesus.

As well as not being blessed or accepted by Jesus, Psalm 109 speaks against someone who matches Paul's description.

Let them be before YHWH continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth.
Because that he remembered not to shew mercy, but persecuted the poor and needy man, that he might even slay the broken in heart.
As he loved cursing, so let it come unto him: as he delighted not in blessing, so let it be far from him.
As he clothed himself with cursing like as with his garment, so let it come into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones.
Let it be unto him as the garment [which] covereth him, and for a girdle wherewith he is girded continually.
[Let] this [be] the reward of mine adversaries from YHWH, and of them that speak evil against my soul.
But do thou for me, O YHWH the Lord, for thy name's sake: because thy mercy [is] good, deliver thou me.
Psalms 109:15-21

 

[YoursTrue]

Jesus was described as righteous, meaning just. It is not just to bless someone who deserves to be suffer.

Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
Acts 9:13

From your text:



Accepting the report of Paul's evil and speaking of his future suffering is not consistent with being blessed and accepted.

I think we're playing from two different decks. Or platforms. So in order for me to understand your reasoning, let me ask you a question, because I don't know you too well. May I ask if you believe Jesus was the Messiah?

 

[Kenny]

A vessel of suffering.

Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
Acts 9:13-16

There is a difference between “a vessel of suffering” and “How great things he must suffer for my name’s sake”.

Jesus said John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you;

All of the Apostles suffered, not as a vessel of suffering but rather persecuted for His name sake.

 

[Ebionite]

There is a difference between “a vessel of suffering” and “How great things he must suffer for my name’s sake”.

The difference can be found in verse 15:
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Acts 9:15

All of the Apostles suffered, not as a vessel of suffering but rather persecuted for His name sake.

The difference here is that Paul was responsible for carrying out some of the persecution of the disciples. There's some prophetic context for this in Zechariah:

Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [that is] my fellow, saith YHWH of armies: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
Zechariah 13:7

 

[Kenny]

The difference can be found in verse 15:
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Acts 9:15

Yes… he is a chosen vessel.

All the Apostles were chosen vessels. All suffered for His name sake.

The difference here is that Paul was responsible for carrying out some of the persecution of the disciples. There's some prophetic context for this in Zechariah:

Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [that is] my fellow, saith YHWH of armies: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
Zechariah 13:7

??? Don’t understand the application at all.

 

[Ebionite]

??? Don’t understand the application at all.

Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.
Matthew 26:31

Zechariah 13:7 mentions a second man (geber), i.e. like a warrior (sicarri -> Iscariot)).

Relating to betrayal (Iscariot):

And YHWH said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty [pieces] of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of YHWH.
Zechariah 11:13

Then a new character is introduced (shepherd = religious leader, eg Paul):

For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, [which] shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.
Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword [shall be] upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.
Zechariah 11:16-17

Eat the flesh -> "body of Christ", hypocrisy -> Pharisee.

With hypocritical mockers in feasts, they gnashed upon me with their teeth.
Psalms 35:16

 

[Kenny]

Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.
Matthew 26:31

Yes… they smote Jesus and the flock were scattered and the persecution caused them to go to the world.

Zechariah 13:7 mentions a second man (geber), i.e. like a warrior (sicarri -> Iscariot)).

Relating to betrayal (Iscariot):

That would be up to interpretation...

7. Awake, O sword, against my shepherd. These words are quoted in the Zadokite Covenant Document of Damascus as Zechariah’s, in a context dealing with the time when God visits the earth to judge the wicked. My shepherd indicates that this is no ordinary leader, but the Lord’s gift to his people. With different vowels (for Hebrew was originally written with only the consonants) the word rōʿî would mean ‘companion’, but the context shows that the meaning here is ‘shepherd’; all the same there may be a play on words here in view of the parallel the man who stands next to me. The expression ‘who stands next to me’ is used elsewhere only in Leviticus (e.g. 6:2; 18:20) to mean ‘near neighbour’; similarly the shepherd is one who dwells side by side with the Lord, his equal. It is all the more remarkable that the Lord commands the sword, strike the shepherd, though there is a parallel in Isaiah 53:10, ‘Yet it was the will of the Lord to bruise him’. The sheep are the Lord’s people, as in Ezekiel 34. As at the time of the exile they are to be leaderless and therefore scattered, and the Lord’s hand is to be against the little ones. neb translates as the shepherd boys. The idea is that the humble and helpless will suffer, as indeed the faithful friends of the Lord suffered at the crucifixion (Luke 2:35), and there are indications elsewhere that the church will suffer severely, even to apparent extinction, before the final intervention of the Lord (Mark 13:19, 24; Rev. 11:3–10). Certain commentators interpret the last line differently, taking it as a gesture of protection for the helpless.


Baldwin, J. G. (1972). Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi: An Introduction and Commentary (Vol. 28, p. 213). InterVarsity Press.

Other viewpoints make no mention of Iscariot.

And YHWH said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty [pieces] of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of YHWH.
Zechariah 11:13

This can be applied to Judas, yes.

So … thirty pieces of silver—thirty shekels. They not only refused Him His due, but added insult to injury by giving for Him the price of a gored bond-servant (Ex 21:32; Mt 26:15). A freeman was rated at twice that sum.


Jamieson, R., Fausset, A. R., & Brown, D. (1997). Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (Vol. 1, p. 731). Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Then a new character is introduced (shepherd = religious leader, eg Paul):

For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, [which] shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.
Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword [shall be] upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.
Zechariah 11:16-17

Eat the flesh -> "body of Christ", hypocrisy -> Pharisee.

With hypocritical mockers in feasts, they gnashed upon me with their teeth.
Psalms 35:16

With everything that is at my disposal… it refers to a false and foolish shepherd inferring to the anti-christ and not Paul

 

[YoursTrue]

The difference can be found in verse 15:
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Acts 9:15


The difference here is that Paul was responsible for carrying out some of the persecution of the disciples. There's some prophetic context for this in Zechariah:

Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [that is] my fellow, saith YHWH of armies: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
Zechariah 13:7

What is your point? Paul was eventually blessed, not cursed by God because he changed his course once he realized what he was doing against God. It can be a privilege to suffer for the sake of God and Paul changed his course once he realized who was speaking to him. You might want to notice this: "We give great honor to those who endure under suffering. For instance, you know about Job, a man of great endurance. You can see how the Lord was kind to him at the end, for the Lord is full of tenderness and mercy." James 5:11. ("Great honor to those who endure under suffering." Like Job, who endured while he suffered. So what is your point?)

 

[YoursTrue]

Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.
Matthew 26:31

Zechariah 13:7 mentions a second man (geber), i.e. like a warrior (sicarri -> Iscariot)).

Relating to betrayal (Iscariot):

And YHWH said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty [pieces] of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of YHWH.
Zechariah 11:13

Then a new character is introduced (shepherd = religious leader, eg Paul):

For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, [which] shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.
Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword [shall be] upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.
Zechariah 11:16-17

Eat the flesh -> "body of Christ", hypocrisy -> Pharisee.

With hypocritical mockers in feasts, they gnashed upon me with their teeth.
Psalms 35:16

Well, people can argue over this, you obviously have a different view of the scriptures that some others do. God himself will work it out. God through his Son came to the apostle Paul then known as Saul and he changed his mind, understood it immediately when he was approached by Jesus.

 

[YoursTrue]

The difference can be found in verse 15:
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Acts 9:15


The difference here is that Paul was responsible for carrying out some of the persecution of the disciples. There's some prophetic context for this in Zechariah:

Paul persecuted Jesus' disciples before Christ approached him in that "blinding light". Paul understood quickly what happened. No big going over the scriptures with Paul because he KNEW the Bible, he was well learned. Jesus knew what he was talking about when he appointed Paul (then Saul) as one to carry forth the good news about Jesus Christ.

 

[Ebionite]

would mean ‘companion’, but the context shows that the meaning here is ‘shepherd’; all the same there may be a play on words here in view of the parallel the man who stands next to me.

'shepherd' does not follow from geber.

geber amiti
"man" "companion"
warrior associate

Zechariah 13:7 Interlinear: Sword, awake against My shepherd, And against a hero -- My fellow, An affirmation of Jehovah of Hosts. Smite the shepherd, and scattered is the flock, And I have put back My hand on the little ones.

biblehub.com

Compare Gabriel:

Gabriel = "warrior of God" or "man of God"

H1403 - gaḇrî'ēl - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (kjv)

H1403 - גַּבְרִיאֵל Gabrîyʼêl, gab-ree-ale'; from and ; man of God; Gabriel, an archangel:—Garbriel.

www.blueletterbible.org

 

[Ebionite]

What is your point?

That a just man does not bless a wicked man.

Paul was eventually blessed, not cursed by God because he changed his course once he realized what he was doing against God.

A change in course is not the same thing as a change in heart. Paul's character was evidenced by his cursing of those who did not agree with his doctrine and his defamation of Moses.

Paul then known as Saul

The change in name is associated with blindness.

And now, behold, the hand of the Lord [is] upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.
Acts 13:11

 

[YoursTrue]

That a just man does not bless a wicked man.


A change in course is not the same thing as a change in heart. Paul's character was evidenced by his cursing of those who did not agree with his doctrine and his defamation of Moses.


The change in name is associated with blindness.

And now, behold, the hand of the Lord [is] upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.
Acts 13:11

Naturally, and of course according to the rules of the forum as I believe you don't have to back up your allegations. Or properly understand Acts 13:11. I did look it up and there's more to it than what you suggested. So, for the sake of what I think is the good news about the Lord Jesus I relate the incident:
"They traveled through the whole island until they came to Paphos. There they met a Jewish sorcerer and false prophet named Bar-Jesus, 7who was an attendant of the proconsul, Sergius Paulus. The proconsul, an intelligent man, sent for Barnabas and Saul because he wanted to hear the word of God. 8But Elymas the sorcerer (for that is what his name means) opposed them and tried to turn the proconsul from the faith. 9Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked straight at Elymas and said, 10“You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord? 11Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind for a time, not even able to see the light of the sun.”
Thank you for bringing this up about the sorcerer and how he was blinded for a time by Paul. Yes yes yes.

 

[Ebionite]

I did look it up and there's more to it than what you suggested.

What relevant information do you think I left out?

I note that you didn't address the issue of Paul's defamation of Moses.