If you take away religion, what arguments are there against homosexuality?

[Bismillah]

Your question isn't really why can't they marry, it's why is it morally wrong for a society to allow them to marry, right?

Correct

First, let's establish what age you think people should have these rights, and what you define as a child. Otherwise things get kind of slippery.

I'm being ambiguous on purpose.

 

[Autodidact]

Correct

I'm being ambiguous on purpose.

O.K., let me know when you're willing to get specific, so we can talk.

 

[Bismillah]

You're the one equating adult relationships with child marriage, Abibi.

You'll note that I'm not saying that either is ok. But, I'm asking why one type should be legalized and the other still be outlawed.

If they have sex with an adult, then it's wrong--for the adult.

If it's consensual and the child understands why he or she is doing why is it wrong?

I am sorry can you tell me your religions stand on women...?

Cover them in gift wrap, revoke their license, remove them from juries, and force them to work in the house. Is that entertaining your preconceived notions or should I go on? Don't try and be smart with my beliefs, considering you don't know what they are.

You got dat right. And depending upon their ages & the state, it can be perfectly legal too.

Considering that we both live/d in Michigan I guess we both have heard the stories

 

[Bismillah]

O.K., let me know when you're willing to get specific, so we can talk.

The point being that morality is ambiguous. The reasons for allowing gay marriage should also allow child marriage. Child marriage, after all, isn't inherently worse than homosexual marriages.

 

[Revoltingest]

The point being that morality is ambiguous. The reasons for allowing gay marriage should also allow child marriage. Child marriage, after all, isn't inherently worse than homosexual marriages.

The difference is in maturity level. Too young = bad consequences.
What defines "too young" will be a cultural, political & somewhat arbitrary legal definition.

 

[MW0082]

Cover them in gift wrap, revoke their license, remove them from juries, and force them to work in the house. Is that entertaining your preconceived notions or should I go on? Don't try and be smart with my beliefs, considering you don't know what they are.

Thats not what I said, but don't patronize me and act like islamic people do not treat women differently than say Western cultures.....

And also there is another reason why other marriages would not be allowed. they have laws against them, so if you would like old men to marry young girls, you would ahve to change the age of consent, and to have multiple wifes ( and why can't women have multiple husbands, oh yeah the men being better thing....) is also illegal. So again change that law, and we could have those types of marriages. Now to say it's immoral for gays to get married beccause the rest cannot is hogwash. the rest have multiple reasons they shouldn't get married. gays have one, dumb people in society.....

 

[Bismillah]

Teenagers can decide on many things that will hugely impact their future lives. They make bad choices and good ones. Why should they not be able to choose to be married?

 

[LuisDantas]

The point being that morality is ambiguous.

What exactly do you mean by that? In your opinion, is morality necessarily ambiguous? Is that avoidable? Is it desirable?

The reasons for allowing gay marriage should also allow child marriage. Child marriage, after all, isn't inherently worse than homosexual marriages.

Of course it is.

 

[LuisDantas]

Teenagers can decide on many things that will hugely impact their future lives. They make bad choices and good ones. Why should they not be able to choose to be married?

Truth be told, there are people well into and beyond their thirties that are not fully capable of deciding on whether they should be married. And there are probably people at fourteen or even at an younger age that are fully capable of dealing with such a decision.

It is not really possible to establish a hard rule that is fair to decide such personal matters. But governments and communities should still do their best to avoid at least the most common unfair or dangerous occurrences. That is why there are laws and rules using age as criteria for allowing or forbidding such things. It is arbitrary, but some sort of arbitration is indeed a practical need.

 

[Autodidact]

You'll note that I'm not saying that either is ok. But, I'm asking why one type should be legalized and the other still be outlawed.

I thought we were talking about morality.

If it's consensual and the child understands why he or she is doing why is it wrong?

Think really hard. I think you can figure it out. I'll give you a hint. One is exploitative and unequal, and one isn't.

 

[Autodidact]

The point being that morality is ambiguous. The reasons for allowing gay marriage should also allow child marriage. Child marriage, after all, isn't inherently worse than homosexual marriages.

Well, unless you have the slightest ability to reason about morality.

Here, I'll make it really simple. One is equal, the other is unequal.

 

[MW0082]

Isn't it ironic how all these constituents that push for a legalization of homosexual marriages also apply to polygamy and polyandry? Pushing one aspect of the agenda is biased then. Like I said it would require a complete reconstruction and revision of the traditional American view of marriage.

No it wouldn't, because this country would never allow for such dumb ideas as multiple wives...

"I didn't say they weren't, but in AMERICA marriage is a contract between two straight people"

not for very long, and you still wont be able to marry 14 years old or have mutiple women to treat like ****.... And thats what makes you mad. Sorry

I don't care if you want to be perceived as childish if you can't compose your dialogue calmly. The first few websites that pop up list a higher occurrence of STDs among the male homosexual population. Also by your own logic you are also a bigot.
I would like to follow up with what makes it wrong for a old man to marry a young child?

Umm no, I was using your won logic considering that STD's are higher among the black latino, and underpriveleged culture in America. I think everyone has the right to get married, well except children and bigots who want multiple wifes...

 

[Faithfreedom]

Originally Posted by Faithfreedom
How about this:
It decreases the population growth thereby decreasing the amount of taxes a government can collect.
It also decreases the number of soldiers a country can draft into service.

Are you just sort of pointing to a possible argument, however bad, or are you advancing this argument sincerely?

Yes, I am pointing it out as a possible arguement.
Its bad? I thought it was pretty good actually.
I not advancing this nor any other arguements to win debates.
Like i said, i have no urge to win. I just like to discuss and learn (and maybe to help).
As to sincerity - I am always sincere.

 

[Duck]

I am questioning the morality of homosexual marriages? That is accepting it would mean to accept the majority of other banned marriages. Do you think it's ok to allow these other relationships to be justified as marriages?



Not at all. If it is voluntary and the fourteen year old understands what he or she is doing then why is it inherently worse than homosexual marriage?

For the first question: Yes, I do think that legal recognition of polygamous and polyandrous relationships is justified. I do recognize that due in large part to longstanding religious and social disapproval that the reality of legal recognition of those relationships is far off. I am not terribly involved in activism for any causes at the moment (beyond being a generally outspoken individual) so I can't really say that I will fight very hard for recognition of poly-relationships. I won't speak against them, and if asked I will state my approval of recognition of those relationships. My activism may increase in the future (for more matters than just marriage rights for all folks).

For the second question: There are two factors involved. The long standing social norm and the subsequent legal structures that social norm has engendered. The social norm (at least in most of the United States which is the area I am most familiar with) is that people under a certain age are not capable of making decisions with legal ramifications, such as entering into a contract (such as marriage, or opening a McDonald's franchise), or taking out a mortgage loan, due in large part to their physical and mental maturation. For the most part the age at which a person is considered mature enough (and it is more-or-less socially acceptable) for entering into a marriage without parental permission is between the ages of 16 and 18 (most states I believe are 18, with most of the remaining at 16 or 17), with one or two notable exceptions. I believe it is Mississippi that allows (or until recently allowed, I haven't checked in a couple of years, and may have mis-remembered the state) marriage at 14 for a girl with parental and judicial permission and at 15 for a boy under those same strictures. There are only a couple of states (and maybe just the one) that allow marriage at that age. I am not sure if there was an upper limit or differential limit on the ages of the two entering into a marriage contract in those states with ages below 18 (I am not sure if for example, a 35 year old could marry a 14 year old in Mississippi or if the older of the partners had to be closer in age). Given that "traditional" marriage vows were 'til death do us part' I question the capability of an 18 year old to fathom that type of vow, much less the typical 14 year old.

My personal take is that both partners need to be legally capable of entering into a legal and binding contract (religious trappings and ceremonies aside that is what marriage is - a legal contract) before being allowed to marry. If social norms shift such that it is commonly acceptable for 14 year olds (your average 14 year old, not the bright and mature exceptions that exist, I am looking at you Doogie Howser, MD ) then I think that the legal structures associated with entering into contracts need to be adjusted, such that if a 14 year old is considered to be mature enough to enter into a marriage contract, that 14 year old is also mature enough to buy a house, or rent an apartment, or join the peace corps. Until those requirements are met, I am accepting of having a legally and socially accepted minimum age limit, which I think should be applied equally across the country (and should be 18, the legal age for most other contractual relationships).

The age limit for marriage is also strongly tied to the legal age of consent (in most cases) for sexual intercourse, so there would also be legal and social changes that would have to happen in that regard as well.

 

[Faithfreedom]

Originally Posted by Faithfreedom
Well, everyone needs money (except naked Sadhus of India, etc) even the government. One less baby is one less future taxable citizen and one less potential draftee to press into armed services to defend the country.

Assuming this is sincere,

Ma'am, that's the second time you have impugned my sincerity. I am getiing a bit miffed.

it's a strong argument against celibacy.

Yes that is true. In countries where the birth rate is desired to be increased by their governmnets celibacy, doesn't help as well. But in countries where the government wants the population to decrease, then celibacy and homosexuality is great for business!

It enforces a moral requirement to reproduce.

No need to force. Just persuade by giving incentives for having a large family.

Is that your position?

Again ma'am, i do not anchor myself to any one spot and fight tooth and nail to stay there. If you want to knock me off my "position", then i concede. Please consider me officially knocked off.

 

[gnomon]

A greater risk of transmitting diseases.

From the American legislative perspective, giving homosexuals the right to marry would be still be excluding minorities. What about Polygamy and Polyandry? Why are these not as equally right as homosexuality? Accepting homosexual marriages are valid in America would require a dramatic reconstruction of the traditional views on relationships and legality of multiple relationships.

Really? Ok tell me why homosexuals should be able to marry? I just want a list.



Polygamy and Polyandry are and were practiced throughout the ages. What do you mean how? I can turn the question and say How could you even have homosexual marriages? LOL really?



Firstly, you might want to revise your post and try to be a bit calmer. I'm not particularly endorsing these ideas since my own opinion is based on religion. Just participating in the discussion. Secondly, published facts from the CDC google it...

It really is a riot seeing that the justice you seek for yourself doesn't apply to the others. The misconceived moral high ground is it? Marriage only fits the boundaries that you define, coincidence...

A fourteen year old can't make the right choices for them self? Living in America, there are quite a few teenagers that are making their own life choices. Why can't they choose to be married?

The point being that morality is ambiguous. The reasons for allowing gay marriage should also allow child marriage. Child marriage, after all, isn't inherently worse than homosexual marriages.

This entire line of argumentation was worthless.

The OP asked for arguments against homosexuality.

It didn't ask about gay marriage. Nor did it ask about allowing either homosexuals or heterosexuals entering into plural marriages. Nor did it ask about child marriages. Those are irrelevant.

At least arthra understood the OP and made an attempt at putting forward a non-religious argument against homosexuality. Too bad he relied on Freud's defunct concept of psychosexual development.

 

[croak]

I think everyone has the right to get married, well except children and bigots who want multiple wifes...

Are you saying every man who has more than one wife is a bigot? I hope not.

After reading this thread, I think it all comes down to what Storm said:

"It's icky!"

 

[EmmaRhiannon_x]

I’m not a homosexual myself, but I have friends who are, and in Norway it’s not an issue for most people. However, even a passing glance at the world in general will tell you that if anything Norway is an exception. Usually the arguments against homosexuality are based in religion, and true, if you are a follower of the literal teachings of the Quran or the Bible, then homosexuality is indeed a sin.
Now, I’m an atheist and I don’t buy arguments from religion on any level. You’ll have to do better than claim divine authority to convince me, and thus I was wondering if there are any non-religious arguments against homosexuality.

Seeing as I’m not completely dim-witted I have of course heard the most common ones and thus before I ask for your opinions I will do away with a couple that falls flat on their face immediately.

“Homosexuality is unnatural!”

This is complete hogwash. Close to 1500 different species have been observed partaking in homosexual behaviour and more than 500 of them have been confirmed in full. If anything homosexuality is very natural indeed.

“If everyone was gay the human race would die out!”

Also utter nonsense. First off, everyone isn’t gay, nor will they ever be. As of now homosexuals consists of between 5-10% of the population and this seems fairly constant. Also, at the moment we are more people on this planet than there has ever been and we’re not likely to run out any time soon. In fact, we have more of a problem with the fact that we’re so many than we have with a potential lack of humans, and in any case reproduction can easily take place without men and women having intercourse. So this isn’t a problem and will never be a problem.


So, apart from the ludicrous statements above, are there any arguments against homosexuality that doesn’t stem from religion?

No, I don't think there is.
I've been slated for being a lesbian far too often to realise, it's either a religious argument or sheer stupidness and small-mindedness because they think it's 'unnatural' or they're homophic (which is because they think it's unnatural )

One could argue that relationship-wise it is a less than satisfactory condition. Relationships are good and healthy for the average human being. By nature of the fact that homosexuals are such a small percentage of society, the chances of them finding a partner who they are attracted to and able to have a happy relationship with are smaller than that of straight men and women.

I don't understand this? :areyoucra
Homosexuals may be a smaller percentage of the population, but if you have ever ventured into the 'gay scene' where you live, you'll realise there's just enough to be getting on with, thank you very much

This will likely offend both homosexuals and hetrosexuals, but anal sex is unsafe as human excrement contains many harmful substances and should be avoided.

3rd world countries who do not have adequate sewage systems have high levels of disease...contaminated drinking waters kills millions every year and some people want to be intimate with anal sex???

So, here you're obviously talking about gay men.
I'm a lesbian & have never once had anal sex - does that mean being a lesbian is wrong? :sarcastic

What a bunch of outdated hogwash.......

The ONLY reason anyone would be unhappy by their sexual orientation, is due to the social stigma. It cause homosexuals to kill themselves, and gay men to marry and lead "normal" lives even though they are in hell. And always end up being true to themselves anyways and break a family up. Nojn of this would be needed if say people grew up and stopped hating what they don't know.

Any none religious reason is single stupidity in a minor amount of individuals who act like children......... Plain and simple.

Thank you!
The only reason I was worried about 'coming out' was because of social stigma and hatred. Do you realise how many times I've been told I'm a 'sl*g' 'I'm going to hell' 'I'm unnatural'? Too many too count! And you know what hurts the most? Just like you said, they're hating something they know nothing about. I agree, any none religious argument against homosexuality is from people who act like children.

Really? Ok tell me why homosexuals should be able to marry? I just want a list.

Because we're normal human beings that want a normal and happy life, which includes marrying the person you love.

Polygamy and Polyandry are and were practiced throughout the ages. What do you mean how? I can turn the question and say How could you even have homosexual marriages? LOL really?

What do you mean 'How could you even have homosexual marriages'? That's just a stupid question - a homosexual marriage, is when two homosexual people, guess what ... MARRY!

A greater risk of transmitting diseases.

I'm going to go and find where I once read this, but I'm pretty sure hetrosexual relations carry more diseases than lesbian relations .. I shall find the source - though I read that a while ago!

 

[mara]

It ends a society for some reason, the entire society falls after that, and that's why it was punishable by death before.
People say they're born that way, well how about I say I was born a child molester, and wanting to kill folk, so give me my rights. Just becuase you're born wanting to do something unnatural and not right doesn't mean you have to do it. struggle against it. To say someone is a homosexual is like saying someone is a child molester, they aren't those things, they are people that DID HOMOSEXUAL ACTIVITY, or people that DID CHILD MOLESTING ACTIVITY, neither one are right and one is an abomination.
You would think having sex with your parents is an abomination but it isn't, two men or two women is though, just like having sex with animals.

 

[Storm]

It ends a society for some reason, the entire society falls after that, and that's why it was punishable by death before.
People say they're born that way, well how about I say I was born a child molester, and wanting to kill folk, so give me my rights. Just becuase you're born wanting to do something unnatural and not right doesn't mean you have to do it. struggle against it. To say someone is a homosexual is like saying someone is a child molester, they aren't those things, they are people that DID HOMOSEXUAL ACTIVITY, or people that DID CHILD MOLESTING ACTIVITY, neither one are right and one is an abomination.
You would think having sex with your parents is an abomination but it isn't, two men or two women is though, just like having sex with animals.

Yet another bigot who can't comprehend consent..... :sleep: