imagine...

[Thief]

well it's not...it's what father heathen and i have been saying all along
our understanding is that peep hole and using our labels limits what it is we see.



well the eye of the needle wasn't impossible to go through, it just takes tenacity when facing challenges to go forward and eventually you'll find your way through.

but this isn't the point i'm making.
this eye of the needle is basically keep trying and if you are really searching for an answer you'll find it through progress.



i don't think if people are successful means anything, they still have to sleep soundly at night.



what is the path of destruction, skepticism?
sounds like fear to me.



why do you think there is so much strife between religions?
because of their narrow mindedness and mediocrity...and unfortunately we are surrounded and live a life that is consequential to this small minded ideal. that god can actually fit through that peep hole.

Well the 'peep hole' I look through doesn't have a religion. (rogue theologian).

And it all comes together...later on...after the mediocrity is cut down.
I'm just hoping to avoid the 'cut'.

 

[waitasec]

Those of us who believe see evidence in God's existance everywhere we look. I don't think very many of us have faith in Him without having seen evidence.

huh? i thought faith is believing without evidence...

 

[Danmac]

john lennon was on to something. but lets take this idea one step further
(if that's possible...)
lets say science found unquestionable evidence for god somehow...what would happen then?
would god all of a sudden appear to humanity and tell us how we are to serve him, if that is what would be required?
or, if at that point after the discovery god still remains the way god is now, what do you think would happen? do you think humanity would unite or become even more divided than we are now?

what do you think?

Faith would become unnecessary.

 

[waitasec]

Well the 'peep hole' I look through doesn't have a religion. (rogue theologian).

And it all comes together...later on...after the mediocrity is cut down.
I'm just hoping to avoid the 'cut'.

you mean being tossed out with the fat?

 

[waitasec]

Faith would become unnecessary.

i disagree, because now that god has been proven, which religious faith is the right one? how would that be established?

 

[Penumbra]

Those of us who believe see evidence in God's existance everywhere we look. I don't think very many of us have faith in Him without having seen evidence. But it's not evidence that can be replicated by science. Accepting something only where there is absolute proof requires nothing of us.

By what method do you suppose that believing based on certain types of evidence is good and that other types of evidence are somehow lesser? Seems completely arbitrary to me.

When unsubstantiated claims cannot be argued on their own merit based on reason and evidence, it's a viable and dishonest strategy to assert that it's somehow better to believe them without evidence.

St. Gregory once said, "If the work of God could be comprehended by reason, it would be no longer wonderful, and faith would have not merit if reason provided proof.” I see the same thing as being true pertaining to the existance of God itself.

Of course, and that's why faith in this context doesn't have merit.

You're right. There is. And believing that God doesn't exist is just one of those unsubstantiated claims.

And you don't see me arguing that believing that without reason to is asked, or that it's somehow better to believe it without good reason than to carefully examine all relevant data and form a tentative conclusion.

 

[Katzpur]

By what method do you suppose that believing based on certain types of evidence is good and that other types of evidence are somehow lesser? Seems completely arbitrary to me.

Spiritual knowledge is very personal and subjective, while other types of knowledge aren't. I wouldn't even think of using faith to prove a scientific theorum, for instance.

When unsubstantiated claims cannot be argued on their own merit based on reason and evidence, it's a viable and dishonest strategy to assert that it's somehow better to believe them without evidence.

I would never suggest that anyone believe something without evidence, but in terms of God's existance, what I would accept as evidence would not be accepted by someone else. Consequently, I don't believe I'm being the slightest bit dishonest in stating (just as an example) that I have faith in God because I believe He has answered my prayers. It would, however, be dishonest for me to deny that. On the other hand, I wouldn't ask you to accept the evidence that has convinced me of His existance.

Of course, and that's why faith in this context doesn't have merit.

My faith may not have any merit to you, but it does to me.

And you don't see me arguing that believing that without reason to is asked, or that it's somehow better to believe it without good reason than to carefully examine all relevant data and form a tentative conclusion.

I don't believe I'm guilty of that either, Penumbra. I'm totally willing to live and let live, and I can't ever recall suggesting that believers are in any way superior to non-believers. I actually think I'm pretty non-judgmental in this regard. I'm sorry if you see me otherwise.

 

[waitasec]

if i may katzpur,

Spiritual knowledge is very personal and subjective, while other types of knowledge aren't.

which would explain for the dissension among the plethora of religious beliefs

I would never suggest that anyone believe something without evidence, but in terms of God's existance, what I would accept as evidence would not be accepted by someone else.

for the simple fact that it's not evidence, it's faith.

Consequently, I don't believe I'm being the slightest bit dishonest in stating (just as an example) that I have faith in God because I believe He has answered my prayers. It would, however, be dishonest for me to deny that.

are you ever a skeptical of anything?

On the other hand, I wouldn't ask you to accept the evidence that has convinced me of His existance.

because it is your personal belief

My faith may not have any merit to you, but it does to me.

practically speaking, it most certainly does.
especially if ones faith requires one do do ugly things in the name of god; 9/11 or voting against same sex marriages.

I don't believe I'm guilty of that either, Penumbra. I'm totally willing to live and let live, and I can't ever recall suggesting that believers are in any way superior to non-believers. I actually think I'm pretty non-judgmental in this regard. I'm sorry if you see me otherwise.

if your faith does not affect me in the practical sense...great. i'm all for it.

 

[Penumbra]

Spiritual knowledge is very personal and subjective, while other types of knowledge aren't. I wouldn't even think of using faith to prove a scientific theorum, for instance.

Claiming that a god exists is an objective claim. Whether a person believes it or not is personal, but the claim itself is not.

I would never suggest that anyone believe something without evidence, but in terms of God's existance, what I would accept as evidence would not be accepted by someone else. Consequently, I don't believe I'm being the slightest bit dishonest in stating (just as an example) that I have faith in God because I believe He has answered my prayers. It would, however, be dishonest for me to deny that. On the other hand, I wouldn't ask you to accept the evidence that has convinced me of His existance.

My faith may not have any merit to you, but it does to me.

If you have answered prayers, then it's evidence. I'd debate about the validity of it, but that's another topic.

I don't believe I'm guilty of that either, Penumbra. I'm totally willing to live and let live, and I can't ever recall suggesting that believers are in any way superior to non-believers. I actually think I'm pretty non-judgmental in this regard. I'm sorry if you see me otherwise.

It's not a matter of being judgmental, it's a matter of good methodology.

You said:
I think that if science were to find unquestionable evidence for God, a lot more people would require nothing more. They'd be believers. And then He'd say something similar to what Jesus said to the Apostle, Thomas. It would be something along these lines: "Because my existence has been proven to you, you believe. Blessed are those who did not require scientific evidence in order to believe."

Which is no doubt a reference to Thomas:
Now Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Thomas is the reasonable one. He's the guy that's not going to get suckered into a cult, or easily convinced of a false statement.

Why on earth would people be "blessed" for not utilizing the scientific method?

 

[Katzpur]

which would explain for the dissension among the plethora of religious beliefs

Agreed.

for the simple fact that it's not evidence, it's faith.

Wrong. Evidence is "an indication or a sign; grounds for belief." Faith is "belief, trust or confidence." They are not the same thing at all.

are you ever a skeptical of anything?

Are you kidding? I was raised to question. I do it every day of my life.

because it is your personal belief

Yes.

practically speaking, it most certainly does.
especially if ones faith requires one do do ugly things in the name of god; 9/11 or voting against same sex marriages.

Why would you only mention "ugly things"? My faith in God has never steered me to do anything harmful to anyone or anything. I'm not saying that I've never done any "ugly things," but it is certainly not my faith in God that's prompted me to do them. On the other hand, when I've contributed financially to humanitarian causes, donated literally hundreds of hours in volunteer work, or sponsored entire families I have never met who arrived in the U.S. as refugees from Azerbaijan and Bosnia, I would say it's been a very direct result of my faith in God. Oh, and for the record: I do not oppose same-sex marriages.

if your faith does not affect me in the practical sense...great. i'm all for it.

That's fine, but by the way, there have been many people who have been affected in a practical sense by my faith; they are better off for it than they would have been otherwise.

 

[Katzpur]

Why on earth would people be "blessed" for not utilizing the scientific method?

For the simple reason that there are things that cannot be proven by utilizing the scientific method.

 

[Penumbra]

For the simple reason that there are things that cannot be proven by utilizing the scientific method.

And for those things it makes sense not to declare a truth about them.

(Unless things like mathematical proofs and logical proofs are utilized, which constitute solid evidence.)

 

[Katzpur]

And for those things it makes sense not to declare a truth about them.

When you see me declare that my religion is the truth, that I couldn't possibly be wrong, and that everybody who disagrees with me is going to regret it sooner or later, let me know. I will never stop saying (at least on a religious discussion forum) what I believe to be true, but I have never, ever claimed that my belief is fact.

 

[waitasec]

Agreed.

i'm not sure you do...
reason why i think this is because of this...

Why would you only mention "ugly things"? My faith in God has never steered me to do anything harmful to anyone or anything. I'm not saying that I've never done any "ugly things," but it is certainly not my faith in God that's prompted me to do them. On the other hand, when I've contributed financially to humanitarian causes or sponsored entire families I have never met, who arrived in the U.S. as refugees from Azerbaijan and Bosnia, I would say it's been a very direct result of my faith in God. Oh, and for the record: I do not oppose same-sex marriages.

do you deny that faith has been used as the justification of injustice?...if it wasn't i wouldn't be on this forum complaining about it...

Wrong. Evidence is "an indication or a sign; grounds for belief." Faith is "belief, trust or confidence." They are not the same thing at all.

so what's the point of faith then?

That's fine, but by the way, there have been many people who have been affected in a practical sense by my faith, and they have been quite appreciative of it.

whatever floats your boat..and i can say the same thing about the absence of faith...the power of the mind is underrated, imo

 

[Penumbra]

When you see me declare that my religion is the truth, that I couldn't possibly be wrong, and that everybody who disagrees with me is going to regret it sooner or later, let me know. I will never stop saying (at least on a religious discussion forum) what I believe to be true, but I have never, ever claimed that my belief is fact.

I've never said that you did, but I do expect you to take ownership of and address what you've said.

I think that if science were to find unquestionable evidence for God, a lot more people would require nothing more. They'd be believers. And then He'd say something similar to what Jesus said to the Apostle, Thomas. It would be something along these lines: "Because my existence has been proven to you, you believe. Blessed are those who did not require scientific evidence in order to believe."

Why on earth would the people other than Thomas be the ones to be blessed? Why would relying on error-prone methodology be considered a virtue, or worth a blessing?

This is a functional problem at the core of many religions.

 

[Katzpur]

i'm not sure you do...

Why on earth would you say that?

do you deny that faith has been used as the justification of injustice?...if it wasn't i wouldn't be on this forum complaining about it...

Why would I deny it? Do you think I'm stupid or something? I simply pointed out what you failed to mention -- that faith has also been used to accomplish some very good things.

so what's the point of faith then?

There is evidence and there is proof. They are not the same thing. If I had proof, I would need no faith. Even with evidence, I still need to trust in what has not been positively proven.

whatever floats your boat.

With your permission, then, I suppose I can go on believing.

 

[Katzpur]

I've never said that you did, but I do expect you to take ownership of and address what you've said.

I think that if science were to find unquestionable evidence for God, a lot more people would require nothing more. They'd be believers. And then He'd say something similar to what Jesus said to the Apostle, Thomas. It would be something along these lines: "Because my existence has been proven to you, you believe. Blessed are those who did not require scientific evidence in order to believe."

Of course I take ownership of it. Why wouldn't I?

Why on earth would the people other than Thomas be the ones to be blessed? Why would relying on error-prone methodology be considered a virtue, or worth a blessing?

I'll tell you what... When you get to Heaven (which I believe you will), take it up with God. I honestly don't have an answer that would satisfy you and I'm really getting tired of doing my best and continuing to fail.

This is a functional problem at the core of many religions.

So what are you actually suggesting that we believers do -- simply stop believing? I'm afraid is just isn't that simple. How about we continue to believe and you continue to disbelieve? Is either one of us hurting the other one?

 

[waitasec]

Why on earth would you say that?

Why would I deny it? Do you think I'm stupid or something? I simply pointed out what you failed to mention -- that faith has also been used to accomplish some very good things.

:sorry1:
i don't think that at all.
faith, if it is a godly and a good thing, why is it also related to horrendous acts?
maybe you haven't read what penumbra wrote yet...she made an excellent point.

There is evidence and there is proof.

which is why i started this thread...
the religious faiths of the world would be even more hostile towards each other. is that what the god of the bible wants....sure seems like it.

With your permission, then, I suppose I can go on believing.

you seem nice enough to be able do to that without hurting anyone

actually, my own mom has said some really mean things about homosexuals and i consider her to be a very nice person...it's just hard for me to understand the concept of religious faith because it doesn't have a clean slate.

 

[waitasec]

So what are you actually suggesting that we believers do -- simply stop believing? I'm afraid is just isn't that simple. How about we continue to believe and you continue to disbelieve? Is either one of us hurting the other one?

what would happen if believers stopped believing?
would the world be worse off? or would the world come to the understanding
WE are in this TOGETHER? we are all we have.
:camp:

 

[Katzpur]

:sorry1:
i don't think that at all.

That's good, because I'm not.

faith, if it is a godly and a good thing, why is it also related to horrendous acts?

There are a lot of qualities that can be used for both good and evil. I believe that faith in one's beliefs has to be measured against civility, respect and tolerance for our differences. That's why my faith has led me to become involved in compassionate acts towards people of various belief systems. For instance, as Mormons, my husband and I first sponsored an Eastern Orthodox family from Azerbaijan, who fled for their lives from their Muslim persecutors. A few years later, we sponsored a Bosnian family whose peaceful lives had been completely distroyed by their Christian enemies. Trust me, having been closely acquainted with both of these families, I know the acts of violence than people commit because of their faith. I sincerely hope I was able to show them what my faith means to me and that is was my strong belief in God that motivated me. We hope to sponsor another refugee family this coming spring. We won't know anything about them until perhaps two days before we meet them. If the time were to come when a family of atheists were to have been driven from their homes because of their lack of belief, we would do the same thing.

which is why i started this thread...
the religious faiths of the world would be even more hostile towards each other.

LOL! Well I guess I missed the whole point then.

is that what the god of the bible wants....sure seems like it.

Actually, I think He wants us to learn to get along. We just don't seem to be doing a very good job of it. When it gets right down to it, there is not one living soul who knows for sure that he has picked the right religion (if he is religious) or that he is right in denying the existance of God.

you seem nice enough to be able do to that without hurting anyone

Most of the time I am. When I'm pushed over the edge, though, try not to be around.

actually, my own mom has said some really mean things about homosexuals and i consider her to be a very nice person...it's just hard for me to understand the concept of religious faith because it doesn't have a clean slate.

Actually, I think that the founders of most of the world's religions were pretty peaceable people. It's their followers who seem to be messed up.