Incel What is it?

[Koldo]

Not blaming it on the modern world I just do not understand it, groups of men whining because they cannot get laid.

And not being funny but Plymouth has got to be one of the easiest places to get laid in the UK! Give him a tenner and point him in the direction of Union Street.

It is a bit more complicated than that.
They perceive dating as an asymmetrical game with men and women, and that they have been given the worst cards. There has been some testing done, and apparently it is a lot easier to get laid if you are a woman. Men have low standards while women have high standards which became a worse problem with the internet. So, if you are either socially inept or quite ugly, you are screwed.

Now, of course, it is possible to improve your odds but playing a game that appears to be rigged against you can make people get really bitter.

 

[Justanatheist]

As with any large group of people, there is a whole lot of different people in there. What connects them all is that they are bitter over past experiences with women, mostly related to feeling either rejected or used.

Even though misogny is often present, it is generally not of the usual old kind where there is a sense of entitlement for being male. But rather a different kind where negative experiences are projected as the entirety of reality, painting women in a really bad light inside an echo chamber.

The biggest problem about the community, as far as I see it, is that it doesn't truly bother to shun the extremists within it. And by doing this they have shot themselves in their feet a lot of times over the years.

What ever happened to going down the pub with your mates having a right old ***** about her and then getting on with it?

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

It is a bit more complicated than that.
They perceive dating as an asymmetrical game with men and women, and that they have been given the worst cards. There has been some testing done, and apparently it is a lot easier to get laid if you are a woman. Men have low standards while women have high standards which became a worse problem with the internet. So, if you are either socially inept or quite ugly, you are screwed.

Now, of course, it is possible to improve your odds but playing a game that appears to be rigged against you can make people get really bitter.

I agree with the words you said, the depiction, but if you're saying high standards are wrong, I disagree.

 

[Revoltingest]

Since you're painting it in black and white terms, you're leaving me to say "I disagree as there are additional nuances".

But that's a trap of a question as it depicts your beliefs of a moral high ground, trying to get me to disagree like I disagree with basic ethics.

It's like saying "All killing is wrong." without factoring in a soldier trying to help another soldier.

You posted....
"You don't want to support incels, though. I've met the non-violent ones.
If you do, I agree with @ChristineM - you might want a bit more sleep."

This was not clear to me. It appears that you possibly
suggested that I might support incels or their violence.
I addressed that.
Your remark about women's punches being insignificant
led to my question about the wrongful violence in general.

Then you said...
"It's like saying "All killing is wrong." without factoring in a soldier trying to help another soldier."
This entirely ignored my theme of violence being wrong when
unprovoked / not in self defense. I have never said that all
killing is wrong. Criminy, I carry a handgun & I was a weapon
design engineer....but I was also a draft dodger.
I'm a non-aggressionist...not a pacifist.

I still don't know where you stand in general.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

You posted....
"You don't want to support incels, though. I've met the non-violent ones.
If you do, I agree with @ChristineM - you might want a bit more sleep."

This was not clear to me. It appears that you possibly
suggested that I might support incels or their violence.
I addressed that.
Your remark about women's punches being insignificant
led to my question about the wrongful violence in general.

I still don't know where you stand in general.

It's a big subject so I'm not sure where to begin. I'll start with....

Women recover from long term injuries slower than men. And have less strength.

If she punches a man, it's terrible, but he'll likely survive it. A lot of women don't know the proper way to punch, anyway. They weren't taught it. Not trying to be sexist, just relaying my experience.

If a man punches a woman with all his strength, it could kill her.

 

[Koldo]

What ever happened to going down the pub with your mates having a right old ***** about her and then getting on with it?

That's not sufficient to everyone.

 

[ChristineM]

Is this one event to define incels?
Or is the issue broader & more complex
than "An incel committed mass murder."

At this stage no. But feel free to have fun

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

This was not clear to me. It appears that you possibly
suggested that I might support incels or their violence.
I addressed that.

Which post did you address it?

 

[Revoltingest]

It's a big subject so I'm not sure where to begin. I'll start with....

Women recover from long term injuries slower than men. And have less strength.

If she punches a man, it's terrible, but he'll likely survive it. A lot of women don't know the proper way to punch, anyway. They weren't taught it. Not trying to be sexist, just relaying my experience.

If a man punches a woman with all his strength, it could kill her.

Yes, we all know that men tend to be stronger than women.
But what is the point behind stating the agreed upon obvious?

 

[Stevicus]

As with any large group of people, there is a whole lot of different people in there. What connects them all is that they are bitter over past experiences with women, mostly related to feeling either rejected or used.

Even though misogny is often present, it is generally not of the usual old kind where there is a sense of entitlement for being male. But rather a different kind where negative experiences are projected as the entirety of reality, painting women in a really bad light inside an echo chamber.

The biggest problem about the community, as far as I see it, is that it doesn't truly bother to shun the extremists within it. And by doing this they have shot themselves in their feet a lot of times over the years.

I've browsed some of the subreddits, and the thing that strikes me is that a lot of these are young guys without any strong, positive role models and without any real direction in life. Couple that with our root Western culture which has a history of violence and genocide, along with the malignant nationalistic ideal that "only the strong shall survive," it appears to have had a negative effect on some people's outlook and perceptions.

Of course, there have been activist efforts to tear down the old order and the traditionalist ways of thinking, openly challenging and subverting the dominant paradigm. In and of itself, that's actually a good and positive step to take, but society has fallen short in coming up with any coherent or consistent set of ideals to replace the old order. As a result, a lot of these young guys don't seem to know what to do with themselves, nor do they see any kind of future. And in the absence of any real positive leadership or role models in society, they'll gravitate towards the echo chambers and the negative role models.

 

[Justanatheist]

That's not sufficient to everyone.

I do not mean to suggest it is, but I think you get what I mean, going on the internet and chatting with others who feel bitter appears like a bad move to me. It appears a person could end up in an unhealthy echo chamber, if that's the right word.

 

[Revoltingest]

At this stage no. But feel free to have fun

This isn't clear.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Yes, we all know that men tend to be stronger than women.
But what is the point behind stating the agreed upon obvious?

That if a woman hits a man, he should try everything possible to avoid hitting her back, before he delivers a possible death sentence.

 

[Kooky]

I admit to skipping part of the OP.
But I still detect some gender tribalism here.
Demonize all incels...& only males....because of the
act of one crazed killer. If this is to be the sole theme
of the thread, & larger issues are to be eschewed,
then so be it.

This is literally only a problem among men - and deliberately so, on part of these communities themselves.
Their forums are very much treehouses where girls are not allowed, and those who do try to become part of their conversations are relentlessly bullied and harassed until they stop contributing or leave altogether.

The "larger issue" here is that there exist online communities that serve as hotbeds for frustrated young men to radicalize themselves in mutually fostered emotional downward spirals that drive them deeper and deeper into depression and self hatred to the point where they may become a danger to themselves or, more frequently, others.

The problem with these communities is that they actively work to counteract any potential alleviation brought about by therapy and try to sabotage any attempts to acquire a more positive outlook on life, women, or their own masculinity.

 

[Revoltingest]

Which post did you address it?

Huh?
In each post you make to me, I addressed in the post that quoted it?

 

[Martin]

This is the downside of the Internet, it's a breeding ground for stuff like this.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Huh?
In each post you make to me, I addressed in the post that quoted it?

Do you sympathize with incels in the context of this thread, as part of how they're being depicted by us?

 

[Revoltingest]

That if a woman hits a man, he should try everything possible to avoid hitting her back, before he delivers a possible death sentence.

Self defense needn't be a death sentence.
It still seems that you're advocating that men just
take it as long as possible. I see no good reason
to endure unjust violence just cuz the assailant
is female.

 

[Kooky]

What ever happened to going down the pub with your mates having a right old ***** about her and then getting on with it?

That would require to go out and meet other people, which is precisely the issue for a lot of those guys.

EDIT: And once you start going down the path of seeing yourself as worthless, failing at your own gender identity, and fundamentally unable to achieve anything positive in life, you don't tend to be a person anybody would want to be around to begin with.
It's a self reinforcing downward spiral, very similar to clinical depression and likewise mental health problems.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Self defense needn't be a death sentence.
It still seems that you're advocating that men just
take it as long as possible. I see no good reason
to endure unjust violence just cuz the assailant
is female.

You can defend yourself. But I'd try defensive moves first.

My point is that men attacking women, even in self defense, isn't exactly the same as women attacking men.