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Is America a Police state?

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Toddler critically burned during SWAT raid | www.wsbtv.com
The story at the above link is sad. I believe the latest news is that the baby is out of the coma and doing better. Parents are concerned about brain damage though....as they should be. I believe the police "No knock Warrant"...produced no guns and no drugs......
This is because they had the wrong house.
The cops didn't even say "Ooopsies!".
But then, they aren't accountable to the victims.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
No matter what the law, cops will still arrest you for engaging in legal activities
(which they dislike) & for not providing ID. Tis interesting that we must be able
to produce our "papers" upon demand, or be cuffed & jailed.
Woman Claims NYPD Has Practice Of Arresting People For Recording Officers « CBS New York

Your statement above made me think of our conversation yesterday about the Obama administration taking Arizona to court over its (legalized profiling) "Papers Please" law. I was reading around the web on the question of...if a police officer pulls you over does he/she have to tell you why they pulled you over "before" asking for your papers and the answers given were "No"....So your sentiment aboove is why I have an issue with their "Papers Please" law. Consequently I believe we have a similar law here in my state. Additionally this is why I took issue with NY's "Stop and Frisk" law. This, to me, puts way too much power in the hands of the police....
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Your statement above made me think of our conversation yesterday about the Obama administration taking Arizona to court over its (legalized profiling) "Papers Please" law. I was reading around the web on the question of...if a police officer pulls you over does he/she have to tell you why they pulled you over "before" asking for your papers and the answers given were "No"....So your sentiment aboove is why I have an issue with their "Papers Please" law. Consequently I believe we have a similar law here in my state. Additionally this is why I took issue with NY's "Stop and Frisk" law. This, to me, puts way too much power in the hands of the police....
I make a distinction when cops do this to those who have broken no law.
I find it acceptable to require ID when one has committed some offense.
This should be the rule of law in AZ too. Merely looking "illegal" wouldn't
be enuf to demand ID.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
I make a distinction when cops do this to those who have broken no law.
I find it acceptable to require ID when one has committed some offense.
This should be the rule of law in AZ too. Merely looking "illegal" wouldn't
be enuf to demand ID.

I don't think the lady in NY video taping is wrong...but I also question the tactics and motives of officers pulling hispanic people over in AZ or any other state, many on bogus traffic infractions, simply to get the person's papers. Like I said...Officers don't even have to tell you why they pulled you over. They can simply come up to your car and ask for your papers. NY's "Stop and Frisk"...was another one of these tactics where governments gave the police too much power over the people.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I have had experiences with a few good cops. They've gone out of their way to help me.
Unfortunately I've searched youtube for "bad cops". It got so depressing I stopped doing it.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I have had experiences with a few good cops. They've gone out of their way to help me.
The other day I saw a state trooper, standing in a heavy downpour, helping a woman jump her car. The country sheriffs were I live tend to be more helpful and not nearly as harassful as the city cops, who typically present themselves as very intimidating and unapproachable. Unfortunately the good cops are very rare while those who nothing more than bullies with a badge are legion.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
The other day I saw a state trooper, standing in a heavy downpour, helping a woman jump her car. The country sheriffs were I live tend to be more helpful and not nearly as harassful as the city cops, who typically present themselves as very intimidating and unapproachable. Unfortunately the good cops are very rare while those who nothing more than bullies with a badge are legion.

.....:clap
 

Thruve

Sheppard for the Die Hard
Im best friends with one so I hope I can clear up some confusion. They all seem to have this 'brother' mentality under the notion that majority of the population hates them. Most I guess understand that 'Somebody has to do this Job', despite the flame, the hate, and misunderstanding from the population. Some I've found understand the moral conflict between intent and motive that we as the general population battle and how they as law enforcement typically only look at intent. In short, it's often like they see crime in black and white, or perhaps they are conditioned to- Either your good or your bad. Either your good, or your trash, shytbag, etc- and many of them come off this way, more specifically the younger generation of deputies. The elder I find are more wise, experienced, and typically have had kids to which they've learned see it otherwise. Personally, the career choice is one with an apple id rather not eat, based off experience, and a mentality I'd be ashamed to adopt. Then again, I think we could all agree that for starters it is NOT an easy Job. I was told by a deputy once that the mentality is often adopted off the job, not beforehand. Imagine dealing with liers, deceivers, mixed in with the righteous who made mistakes, amongs't ruthless theives who would kill them if given the opportunity. Imagine being afraid after pulling someone over because the guy might pull out a gun and kill you. Imagine being afraid for your family at night because of a death threat made to them by a suspect you took to jail. >.> Unless we become deputies, we cannot judge, but overall I don't like them lol

As far as a police state, it is entirely True to an extent. Perhaps we as a people interpret it as a police state simply because we don't know the law like they do, and therefore can't distinguish between law and control of the government. Regardless, deputies do manipulate situations to enforce the law,and take action, and that to me is an exercise of power which would suggest we've become a police state. They do make decisions based off morality, but often don't and can easily justify the law for any decision they want to make, whether we see it as a good one or a bad one.

Ultimately, they have too much power. Only a handful, more specifically those in urban centers, abuse that power. Then again their dealing with alot of troubled people in such areas, so can we forgive? NAW (imo), They abuse their powers, and typically don't ever pay the price, so they are covered by grace which means god forgives them, so they dont need mine/ours.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Im best friends with one so I hope I can clear up some confusion. They all seem to have this 'brother' mentality under the notion that majority of the population hates them. Most I guess understand that 'Somebody has to do this Job', despite the flame, the hate, and misunderstanding from the population. Some I've found understand the moral conflict between intent and motive that we as the general population battle and how they as law enforcement typically only look at intent. In short, it's often like they see crime in black and white, or perhaps they are conditioned to- Either your good or your bad. Either your good, or your trash, shytbag, etc- and many of them come off this way, more specifically the younger generation of deputies. The elder I find are more wise, experienced, and typically have had kids to which they've learned see it otherwise. Personally, the career choice is one with an apple id rather not eat, based off experience, and a mentality I'd be ashamed to adopt. Then again, I think we could all agree that for starters it is NOT an easy Job. I was told by a deputy once that the mentality is often adopted off the job, not beforehand. Imagine dealing with liers, deceivers, mixed in with the righteous who made mistakes, amongs't ruthless theives who would kill them if given the opportunity. Imagine being afraid after pulling someone over because the guy might pull out a gun and kill you. Imagine being afraid for your family at night because of a death threat made to them by a suspect you took to jail. >.> Unless we become deputies, we cannot judge, but overall I don't like them lol
While I do not dismiss these statements (it most certainly a job I do not want), it is still not excuse for piggies to be driving drunk on duty and in their cruisers (and in Indiana kill a motorist and have all your piggy buddies try their hardest to cover up and taint evidence that damns you), to tase old people with advanced alzheimers, harassing people as drug users and searching them even there are no drugs on them, or trying to have a man (black in this case) exposed to double jeopardy after he was found innocent of all charges because he had defended himself from undercover and unidentified police. Hopefully I can find some articles about that one, but it happened so many years ago it might be difficult to find them. There are so many of them that are so corrupt and rotten that they not only deserve judgement, they deserve punishment for their gratuitous abuses.

As far as a police state, it is entirely True to an extent. Perhaps we as a people interpret it as a police state simply because we don't know the law like they do, and therefore can't distinguish between law and control of the government. Regardless, deputies do manipulate situations to enforce the law,and take action, and that to me is an exercise of power which would suggest we've become a police state. They do make decisions based off morality, but often don't and can easily justify the law for any decision they want to make, whether we see it as a good one or a bad one.
The thing is, police do not even know the laws that well. That's what a judge is for. The police make a call based on what they see, or claim to have seen, and it is up to the judge to actually decide if the action was illegal or not. It's one of the reasons it is advised to not fight the police, and save it for your day in court. But this is only in an ideal world where the justice system doesn't revolve around who has money and who doesn't.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
The thing is, police do not even know the laws that well. That's what a judge is for.


Yep.....

I've often wondered if an "Officer" and an "Overseer" have any common roots historically.

I know. It's a stretch but they sound similar and to a degree perform similar functions. Their job is to enforce the rules...to keep people in line if you will....
 

Thruve

Sheppard for the Die Hard
While I do not dismiss these statements (it most certainly a job I do not want), it is still not excuse for piggies to be driving drunk on duty and in their cruisers (and in Indiana kill a motorist and have all your piggy buddies try their hardest to cover up and taint evidence that damns you), to tase old people with advanced alzheimers, harassing people as drug users and searching them even there are no drugs on them, or trying to have a man (black in this case) exposed to double jeopardy after he was found innocent of all charges because he had defended himself from undercover and unidentified police. Hopefully I can find some articles about that one, but it happened so many years ago it might be difficult to find them. There are so many of them that are so corrupt and rotten that they not only deserve judgement, they deserve punishment for their gratuitous abuses.


The thing is, police do not even know the laws that well. That's what a judge is for. The police make a call based on what they see, or claim to have seen, and it is up to the judge to actually decide if the action was illegal or not. It's one of the reasons it is advised to not fight the police, and save it for your day in court. But this is only in an ideal world where the justice system doesn't revolve around who has money and who doesn't.


I Agree with you entirely ^ I just wanted oto share my 2 sense based off my experience with deputies which includes me being a ride along and seeing first hand what they do in a busy district where theres loads of crime.

As i said in the post right after this, they are protected. Is it right? NO, But it is what it is. If you consider it a contributing factor to the Police State argument then Id have to agree.
 
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Thruve

Sheppard for the Die Hard
Yep.....

I've often wondered if an "Officer" and an "Overseer" have any common roots historically.

I know. It's a stretch but they sound similar and to a degree perform similar functions. Their job is to enforce the rules...to keep people in line if you will....

I agree. But people underestimate how much they know about the law, and surely they know more than most of us. Even if in the spur of the moment they are not sure what the law states, they have both a huge book that they've been trained to utilize to quickly find what the law directly states, and a program on their computers/internet they can easily and quickly access on site. Even if they are wrong and wrongfully arrest someone for a crime in which the judge would otherwise dismiss, they are generally protected by the judge/sheriff/agreements therein, and typically have attorneys that work specifically for deputies alone. So, generally a deputy CAN get away with immoral decision making/arrests/things such as you described. They are protected -.- Do i agree with this? No. But it is what it is.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I've nothing useful to add but to say you guys have interesting posts.
That's what this thread is all about.
 

Thruve

Sheppard for the Die Hard
I should also note a few other things that may contribute to us becoming a police state.

Every month deputies typically have a list of all the case numbers they've pulled, traffic tickets/citations/warnings they've given, arrests, DUI'S etc. The deputies I know simply call it their 'stats'. "Let me look at my stats", "I've got to get my stats together", and how this is relevant to the OP is that stats are very important in most situations that involve promotions, moving districts, working/applying for specialty units which include units like narcotics, DUI, etc. The stats prove how PROACTIVE a deputy is on the job, obviously with the district they work in- taken into consideration. A deputy working a middle class district/zone is going to pull less stats than a deputy who works in pit city. Regardless, this should help my new argument to you all that alot of times deputies pull people over, give tickets/citations, arrest people, take suspects to jail, etc- simply to improve stats, which for some cops can become competition. They also do such things to meet quotas, more specifically for 'details' (such as working at the fair), which pays them overtime because these are jobs they sign up for on days off and typically require proactivity and proof of proactivity xP

I've also heard crazy stories where captains will encourage deputies to pull case numbers because apparently case numbers are a great thing for HQ. Case numbers often help close other cases that were never closed. In short, its like filtering the population for open warrants and criminals based off the saying of "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about". Where this becomes scary is with deputies who are TOO proactive, because they can easily cause more harm than good. On the other hand, Deputies do have responsibilities that they otherwise become liable for and can't be protected from. For example, situations involving battery. If your sister calls 911 and tells the dispatcher than you beat her up, they WILL send deputies over knowing that based off of your sisters statement, someone is going to jail. Now, lets say she lied, and you didn;t touch her, regardlesss of the fact shes lying YOU WILL GO TO JAIL most of the time. If you don't, and lets say because she lied you beat her up after the deputies left, or under the argument that you may have lied about beating her up, if they leave the situation be and dismiss the incident and something happens... they are liable. Liability also plays a role on why deputies do things.

On the other hand, the drinking while driving in a marked car, etc- that is not excusable though they may end up protected. The stories we hear about people getting wrongfully tazed and abused are simply deputies out of control and utilizing their power justified by law. It used to make me upset hearing these stories, now it just makes me pity the deputies who do such things.
 
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