Is Baha'u'llah true or false Prophet?

[Pete in Panama]

Sure, part of it is based on the scientific study i quoted and part of it is simply based in reason, however im always suspicious of those who claim to accept science yet in actuality reject reason which is the underpinning foundation upon which science rests.

There was some guy on Youtube who once said that science was an excellent method of inquiry but a crappy belief system --and I tend to agree. As a method of inquiry science assumes that observation and reason are good tools. However we got to remember ttajt those are philosophical assumptions; and there are times when both observation and reason can be fallible. There is no scientific method that can prove that doing good is better than doing bad. Good/bad is value that we assume.

I note in your reply you did not answer any of the reasonable questions posed...

Please ask questions if you want information from me. If you ask a rhetorical question I continue the conversation and move forward. I'm honestly unaware of what questions you're referring to.

I think you are projecting here.

Possibly, but in lieu of an answer I'll take that to mean that you agree that you're unwilling to deviate from your conclusions.

It is you who are unwilling to give up your belief in Baha'u'llah...

Please forgive me but once again I'm at a loss to understand what beliefs you're talking about. I'm not saying what Baha'u'llah is or is not, but rather I'm looking at what you and I can see together and agree on and building from there. I am not debating you. I'm working w/ you.

 

[danieldemol]

There was some guy on Youtube who once said that science was an excellent method of inquiry but a crappy belief system --and I tend to agree. As a method of inquiry science assumes that observation and reason are good tools. However we got to remember ttajt those are philosophical assumptions; and there are times when both observation and reason can be fallible.

They are always fallible, but I dont believe you have an infallible tool to replace them with. Which makes them not only the only common tool we have but in my view the best tool we have

There is no scientific method that can prove that doing good is better than doing bad. Good/bad is value that we assume.

I'm lost for the relevance of this statement

Please ask questions if you want information from me. If you ask a rhetorical question I continue the conversation and move forward. I'm honestly unaware of what questions you're referring to.

Is English your second language? Look for these "?" They are called "question marks" and indicate that a question is being asked. You will find a number of them in post number 776

Possibly, but in lieu of an answer I'll take that to mean that you agree that you're unwilling to deviate from your conclusions.

Considering I said, "I'm willing to change if you can demonstrate either the science and/or the logic that refutes me in my view." I fail to see why you think you haven't been provided an answer and should assume the opposite of what I said.

Please forgive me but once again I'm at a loss to understand what beliefs you're talking about. I'm not saying what Baha'u'llah is or is not, but rather I'm looking at what you and I can see together and agree on and building from there. I am not debating you. I'm working w/ you.

I'm basically pointing out that in my view you are unwilling to deviate from Baha'i belief even if your belief is shown to be contrary to reason and/or science.

 

[Vinayaka]

To be a Baha'i kind of means you don't believe certain things that are major beliefs in the other religions. What are the reasons Baha'is don't? Then, coming from believing in another religion, that person has reasons why they don't believe in the Baha'i Faith. Can either one disregard those reasons? It's not complaining. It's have religious belief that are different and contradictory. And each believes their religion is the one the is correct.

Can a Baha'i really stop caring about those differences and accept the beliefs and practices of the other religions? I don't think "true believers" in any religion can do that. It goes against what they believe is true. Can a Fundy Christian put aside their beliefs about Jesus, that he rose from the dead and is the only was a person can have their sins forgiven, and a big one, that he is God incarnate? Probably not.

But can a Baha'i put aside their belief that Baha'u'llah is the true manifestation for today? That Jesus is just one of many manifestations and that his teachings have long been replaced by the teachings of Islam and the Baha'i Faith. Unless a person is super liberal about doctrinal beliefs, then I don't think so.

So, what's more important to Baha'is, being strong on the belief that Baha'u'llah is a manifestation of God, and his teachings are the only way to bring peace and unity to the world. Or putting those beliefs on the back burner for the sake of being able to find those things that you, as a person, has in common with Fundy Christians, or Muslims or Hindus or anyone else, including Atheists?

Maybe you can. Maybe you try to. But we're here on a debate forum to question these different beliefs. And then there is the problem of the "hidden" agenda... Once a Baha'i or Christian or whomever finds the commonality with the other person, then what? Do they then, slowly, start "guiding" them to the "truth", the Baha'i truth?

I've seen it done by Baha'is and Christians. Make friends with someone, get them to know you and trust you, then invite them to a fireside or Bible study. Or give them a pamphlet to read. But does the Baha'i or Christian ever intend to seriously consider the beliefs of the other person? No, the Baha'i and Christian know they have the truth and are only trying to guide a lost soul to that truth.

Still at it, I see, lol. In these past 5 years, have you seen any movement off the agenda at all? Since I quit here, I've occasionally engaged with a Baha'i or 3 on other forums, and it's always the same story. It's like multiple copies of the same book, but that's understandable. But I have learned to withdraw from the going nowhere discussion sooner. Much sooner. Enjoy!

 

[CG Didymus]

Still at it, I see, lol. In these past 5 years, have you seen any movement off the agenda at all? Since I quit here, I've occasionally engaged with a Baha'i or 3 on other forums, and it's always the same story. It's like multiple copies of the same book, but that's understandable. But I have learned to withdraw from the going nowhere discussion sooner. Much sooner. Enjoy!

A lot of those Baha'is from back then don't post much anymore. Since you left, the debates with Baha'is went on with mostly Atheists. They finally had enough and moved on. I post mainly to be informative for the new people dealing with the claims of Baha'is.

It's good to hear from you again. And one thing I'll always remember... "it's a different paradigm."

 

[CG Didymus]

They are always fallible, but I dont believe you have an infallible tool to replace them with. Which makes them not only the only common tool we have but in my view the best tool we have

Baha'is do believe that science and religion must go hand and hand... at least they pretend they do. Of course, the exception being when science is used to question the Baha'i religion.

Religion and Science are inter-twined with each other and cannot be separated. These are the two wings with which humanity must fly. One wing is not enough. Every religion which does not concern itself with science is mere tradition…. Therefore science, education and civilization are most important necessities for the full religious life. – Abdu’l-Baha in London, p. 28-29.​

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Still at it, I see, lol. In these past 5 years, have you seen any movement off the agenda at all? Since I quit here, I've occasionally engaged with a Baha'i or 3 on other forums, and it's always the same story. It's like multiple copies of the same book, but that's understandable. But I have learned to withdraw from the going nowhere discussion sooner. Much sooner. Enjoy!

As the world affairs deteriorate into a 3rd global conflict, it will become apparent why we keep sharing the elixir given by Baha'u'llah.

Stay safe and well Vinayaka, that's about all we can offer on RF now.

All the best for all humanity, we will need God to cut short these days.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

A lot of those Baha'is from back then don't post much anymore. Since you left, the debates with Baha'is went on with mostly Atheists. They finally had enough and moved on. I post mainly to be informative for the new people dealing with the claims of Baha'is.

It's good to hear from you again. And one thing I'll always remember... "it's a different paradigm."

Thanks for the service then. It's a wise reason for you to to stay. All seekers should hear all sides to the story. I've heard of people joining up without all the facts, then only later figuring it out, and then withdrawing.

 

[Pete in Panama]

They are always fallible, but I dont believe you have an infallible tool to replace them with.

Whether I have an infallible tool or not is irrelevant. We're talking about science and if you want to change the subject to me maybe we can entertain the idea that you have no info that could contradict what I pointed out as being some of the limitations of science.

Which makes them not only the only common tool we have but in my view the best tool we have.

We were talking about how science serves well as a method of inquiry while it fails as a belief system. Are you saying you still value science as a belief system?

I'm lost for the relevance of this statement

It demonstrates that since there's no scientific method that can prove that doing good is better than doing bad, that science has profound limitations. This is why science fails as a belief system. Somehow I'd thought that this was what we were talking about but if you aren't concerned w/ science as a belief system please let me know.

Is English your second language? Look for these "?" They are called "question marks" and indicate that a question is being asked. You will find a number of them in post number 776

How about we understand the nature of rhetorical questions? I mean, why not? Am I the only one who knows what a rhetorical question is? Whoa, is that amazing or what? Those were rhetorical questions that did not require answers. Here's a better explanation (from here):

​

A rhetorical question is a figure of speech in which a question is asked for a reason other than to get an answer—most commonly, it's asked to make a persuasive point. For example, if a person asks, "How many times do I have to tell you not to eat my dessert?" he or she does not want to know the exact number of times the request will need to be repeated. Rather, the speaker's goal is to emphasize his or her growing frustration and—ideally—change the dessert-thief's behavior.​

​

Considering I said, "I'm willing to change if you can demonstrate either the science and/or the logic that refutes me in my view."

You've given many interesting views here and those are what I wanted to explore. So far I'm not aware of any of your views where you are searching for a conflict between your views and observable scientific findings. Personally I doubt that there could be.

I fail to see why you think you haven't been provided an answer and should assume the opposite of what I said.

I'm basically pointing out that in my view you are unwilling to deviate from Baha'i belief even if your belief is shown to be contrary to reason and/or science.

If you think that chatting w/ me is futile then we can stop, and I'll wish you well. otoh if you want to explore this topic w/ me then that's ok w/ me too.

 

[Trailblazer]

Thanks for the service then. It's a wise reason for you to to stay. All seekers should hear all sides to the story. I've heard of people joining up without all the facts, then only later figuring it out, and then withdrawing.

I joined up before I had all the facts, but I got the facts later, and that only further confirmed that I had made the right decision.
Different strokes for different folks. Nobody can prove that the Baha'i Faith is either true or false, except to themselves. It is all a matter of opinion.

I am sure of what I believe and I have no need to convince other people. What I wonder is why others seem to have this need to convince others that the Baha'i Faith is false. If they are so sure of that why do they need to convince others? Everyone has the ability to think for themself and the information about the Baha'i Faith is publicly available in the internet.

 

[danieldemol]

Whether I have an infallible tool or not is irrelevant.

I disagree, if you have no better tool then we are stuck with the best tool we have in spite of its limitations.

We're talking about science and if you want to change the subject to me maybe we can entertain the idea that you have no info that could contradict what I pointed out as being some of the limitations of science.

I've already agreed that science has its limitations.

We were talking about how science serves well as a method of inquiry while it fails as a belief system. Are you saying you still value science as a belief system?

It depends, for belief about what? For belief about the material realm I'll take an evidence based approach over the baseless assertions of a so called "Manifestation of God" any day of the week.

It demonstrates that since there's no scientific method that can prove that doing good is better than doing bad, that science has profound limitations. This is why science fails as a belief system. Somehow I'd thought that this was what we were talking about but if you aren't concerned w/ science as a belief system please let me know.

Ok

How about we understand the nature of rhetorical questions? I mean, why not? Am I the only one who knows what a rhetorical question is? Whoa, is that amazing or what? Those were rhetorical questions that did not require answers. Here's a better explanation (from here):

​

A rhetorical question is a figure of speech in which a question is asked for a reason other than to get an answer—most commonly, it's asked to make a persuasive point. For example, if a person asks, "How many times do I have to tell you not to eat my dessert?" he or she does not want to know the exact number of times the request will need to be repeated. Rather, the speaker's goal is to emphasize his or her growing frustration and—ideally—change the dessert-thief's behavior.​

Correct but irrelevant as I've asked you for answers to the questions thereby indicating they are not mere rhetoric.

You've given many interesting views here and those are what I wanted to explore. So far I'm not aware of any of your views where you are searching for a conflict between your views and observable scientific findings. Personally I doubt that there could be.

Ok, but if there is no conflict between science and my beliefs, and since my beliefs differ from Baha'u'llah's beliefs it can be concluded that Baha'u'llah's beliefs contradict science.

It is then left to the critical thinker to decide which beliefs if any are justified based on the evidence between me and Baha'u'llah.

If you think that chatting w/ me is futile then we can stop, and I'll wish you well. otoh if you want to explore this topic w/ me then that's ok w/ me too.

It's not futile for me. It brings issues to the surface for attention by critical thinking third parties which I think Baha'is would rather omit in their marketing.

 

[Pete in Panama]

I disagree...

Of course you disagree. Maybe we can come back to this later.

Cheers

 

[Muffled]

I sure as hell can be with Jesus and not with Christianity, and I choose to be, since Christianity has long since been corrupted by the Christian leaders.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171

No, Jesus would be glad for it, and especially glad that I recognized His Spirit when it returned in Baha'u'llah.

I believe you can say the words but you do not have the reality and that seems to be endemic.

 

[Muffled]

Who's this Jesus that Baha'is believe in? He is one of many manifestations of God, but he is not God. His spirit rose after he died, but his physical body didn't resurrect and rise. There is no "original" or "inherited" sin from Adam, so there is no need for an atoning death of Jesus to pay that sin debt.

It's not the same Jesus. Maybe yours is the true Jesus. Maybe it is theirs. But they are not the same Jesus.

I believe it is a false image of Jesus and God.

 

[Muffled]

He is Baha'u'llah, He is the Bab, He is Muhammad, He is Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster and Buddha.

He is the first Messenger, he is the Last Messenger, from the beginning that has no beginning, until the end that has no end.

He is Christ, Universal across all the worlds of God.

Regards Tony

I believe that is false.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe you can say the words but you do not have the reality and that seems to be endemic.

I could say the same thing about Christians.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I believe that is false.

I see that is why the world is, as it is.

When the truth is made manifest in the hearts of a majority, the Kingdom of God on earth will be that of the Kingdom in Heaven.

God's name will be One, humanity will be one people on one planet.

We are facing the calamity of the rejection of God's Messengers for this age, the Bab and Baha'u'llah, humanity is reaping what it has sown in the neglect of God's guidance for this age.

God bless all, may God's mercy shorten these days and may the Lesser Peace become manifested.

I see that is our future.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I believe it is a false image of Jesus and God.

If by chance the Baha'is are right, Christians messed up big time on what God was trying to tell them through his "messenger" Jesus. Of course, if the Christians, are right, then the Baha'i Faith is wrong, and Baha'u'llah is not the return of Christ.

 

[CG Didymus]

When the truth is made manifest in the hearts of a majority, the Kingdom of God on earth will be that of the Kingdom in Heaven.

And that's what I'm afraid of... "God's" rule. Do you think that thieves will really get a tattoo on their forehead? Or arsons burned? I assume alive. What kind of punishment would it be if they weren't alive when they got burnt up.

"Exile and imprisonment are decreed for the thief, and, on the third offence, place ye a mark upon his brow so that, thus identified, he may not be accepted in the cities of God and His countries. Beware lest, through compassion, ye neglect to carry out the statutes of the religion of God..."​

​

"Should anyone intentionally destroy a house by fire, him also shall ye burn..."​

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And that's what I'm afraid of... "God's" rule. Do you think that thieves will really get a tattoo on their forehead? Or arsons burned? I assume alive. What kind of punishment would it be if they weren't alive when they got burnt up.

"Exile and imprisonment are decreed for the thief, and, on the third offence, place ye a mark upon his brow so that, thus identified, he may not be accepted in the cities of God and His countries. Beware lest, through compassion, ye neglect to carry out the statutes of the religion of God..."​

​

"Should anyone intentionally destroy a house by fire, him also shall ye burn..."​

Why are you afraid, is it applicable to you?

We are not part of the future that will make new laws, and we have no idea why they will need to be made. So it is ludicrous to judge the future on our age of degraded morality.

You should watch this, it was the poor state of our laws that allowed this maniac to kill many and maim many people, he was let out on bail so many times.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

And that's what I'm afraid of... "God's" rule. Do you think that thieves will really get a tattoo on their forehead? Or arsons burned? I assume alive. What kind of punishment would it be if they weren't alive when they got burnt up.

"Exile and imprisonment are decreed for the thief, and, on the third offence, place ye a mark upon his brow so that, thus identified, he may not be accepted in the cities of God and His countries. Beware lest, through compassion, ye neglect to carry out the statutes of the religion of God..."​

​

"Should anyone intentionally destroy a house by fire, him also shall ye burn..."​

That could also be a prophecy by Baha'u'llah

Now, many of Iranian Shia Mullas have a mark on their forehead, and they are involved in stealing people's money.

Redirect Notice