Is Baha'u'llah true or false Prophet?

[Dawnofhope]

You know I'm willing to bet you haven't read a single one of Baha'u'llah's works in it's original from. Well guess what? I have read many of his works in the original Arabic and Persian. You see I am not the one twisting words or changing meanings, but how would you know? You neither understand Arabic nor Persian? You have never ever in your life investigated the truth about Baha'ism independently. Everything you know about Baha'ism or you think you know about Baha'ism have been through the translations of third parties. You are in no position to even remotely accuse me of twisting words and changing meanings because you don't have the linguistic expertise and means to do so. What I tell you about Baha'ism is what I have read in it's original scripture.

Reading Arabic and Persian does not make you free from prejudice and able to provide reliable translations.

Like many English speaking people I don't read or speak Arabic or Persian. I rely on good quality translations.

What is helpful for Baha'is is that Baha'u'llah appointed Abdu'l-Baha as His successor who in turn appointed twin successors with the Guardian and the Universal House of Justice. The whole question of succession after Muhammad is problematic.

Both Abdu'l-Baha and particularly Shohgi Effendi spoke English and provided authoritative interpretations.

Its good that you speak Arabic and Persian, but I would always rely on an interpretation that I can trust. If we can not find English translations of the Baha'i writings that we both agree are reliable then it makes our conversation difficult.

When you start making statements that completely contradict well known Baha'i writings based on your own translations I'm naturally suspicious.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Well seeing that you didn't answer my question, I'll ask again.
Can you give in Revelation what chapter and verses where Daniel is mention at in Revelation.
The reason Daniel is not mentioned in Revelation,
because the book of Daniel has nothing at all to do with the book of Revelation.

But if you believe Daniel and Revelation goes together, thats you and not me.

But if your trying to convince me that Daniel and Revelation goes together.
Then show in Revelation where Daniel is mention in what chapter and verses in Revelation.

Every wonder why the beast in Daniel 7:19-26 sounds remarkably like the beast in Revelation 12:3-4 and Revelation 13:1-2 and Revelation 17:9-10?

Who is the beast of Revelation?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Well seeing that you didn't answer my question, I'll ask again.
Can you give in Revelation what chapter and verses where Daniel is mention at in Revelation.
The reason Daniel is not mentioned in Revelation,
because the book of Daniel has nothing at all to do with the book of Revelation.

But if you believe Daniel and Revelation goes together, thats you and not me.

But if your trying to convince me that Daniel and Revelation goes together.
Then show in Revelation where Daniel is mention in what chapter and verses in Revelation.

It does not need to mention specifically the name of Daniel in chapter of Revelation in order to see, it is talking about the same thing. All you need, is to realize, both a re prophecies of End Time. Both are revealed prophecies from God. Chapter of revelation, or chapter of denial are revealed by the same God, who has shown visions to Daniel or John. Simple as that. And if you do not believe that, both chapters are revelations from the same God, it is you. I cannot change that.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Here's a quote that I need you to explain. Who is this man of "lawlessness"? And, twice it mentions Jesus by name as the one coming and the one that will destroy the man of lawlessness. Why wouldn't say something like "when the Christ spirit returns", instead of making the Christians think that it is Jesus coming back?
2 Thessalonians 2 New International Version (NIV)
The Man of Lawlessness
2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed,whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

Yes, in many places, in the Bible it is said, Jesus himself return. But in many places also, it is said, Jesus will not return, but the Father, Himself will be with them. How do you resolve this contradictions? The Book resolves. Christ returns in glory of the Father. This is why, in Jewish end time prophecies, Lord of the hosts, the God of Israel is to come. The new Revelation always need to come suddenly, and quietly, like a thief in the night, so, that only the sincere truth seeker, may strive and find it. For this reason, the coming of a new Manifestation of God, has been express in a figurative language, which indeed is sealed, so, its hidden meaning is not easily be known until the appointed time, when it happens, it will become known.

 

[Firemorphic]

Revelation (as cool as it is as a text) is just a rewrite of Ezekiel with some elements of Daniel and the Gospel of Jesus sprinkled over.

 

[Faithofchristian]

It does not need to mention specifically the name of Daniel in chapter of Revelation in order to see, it is talking about the same thing. All you need, is to realize, both a re prophecies of End Time. Both are revealed prophecies from God. Chapter of revelation, or chapter of denial are revealed by the same God, who has shown visions to Daniel or John. Simple as that. And if you do not believe that, both chapters are revelations from the same God, it is you. I cannot change that.

What parallels can you give in Daniel that will line up to Revelation and vice versa

 

[InvestigateTruth]

What parallels can you give in Daniel that will line up to Revelation and vice versa

Many. Here are some:
Daniel 12:4 Revelation 5:1 Isaiah 29:11

Daniel 7:25 Revelation 12:14 Daniel 12:7 Revelation 12:6

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, in many places, in the Bible it is said, Jesus himself return. But in many places also, it is said, Jesus will not return, but the Father, Himself will be with them. How do you resolve this contradictions? The Book resolves. Christ returns in glory of the Father. This is why, in Jewish end time prophecies, Lord of the hosts, the God of Israel is to come. The new Revelation always need to come suddenly, and quietly, like a thief in the night, so, that only the sincere truth seeker, may strive and find it. For this reason, the coming of a new Manifestation of God, has been express in a figurative language, which indeed is sealed, so, its hidden meaning is not easily be known until the appointed time, when it happens, it will become known.

Yes, but who was the "man of lawlessness" that came before the return? And, Rev 22:10 says not to seal up its words.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Many. Here are some:
Daniel 12:4 Revelation 5:1 Isaiah 29:11

Daniel 7:25 Revelation 12:14 Daniel 12:7 Revelation 12:6

Had you read on down in Revelation 5 to verse 5 and not cherry pick one verse out of 14 veses. You would have found in verse 5 that Christ Jesus open the seals, so the seals are not closed. Have you any idea what those seven seals are and what they represent in the book of Revelation.

Verse 5---"And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof"

The Root of David is Christ Jesus.and Christ Jesus loosed the seven seals, So the seven seals not closed as you may think they are.
Next time maybe instead of your cherry picking one verse, it would do you well to read the whole chapter and find out what the subject and article is about, before you cherry pick just one verse out of 14 veses in Revelation
Chapter 5.

As for what you given ---->Daniel 7:25 Revelation 12:14 Daniel 12:7

Seeing you have no clue or idea what Revelation 12:14 is about, the woman is Israel, had you back up to verse 5 and verse 13, you would found in verse 5 the man child to rule all nation's with a rod of iron. This being Christ Jesus
Revelation 19:11-15.

You know in Revelation chapter 12 there are 17 verses, but you cherry pick one verse out of 17 verses.
Which don't even line up to Daniel 7:25 or Daniel 12:7.
Maybe you should read the chapter and find out what the subject and article is about before you cherry pick one verse out of the 17 verses in Revelation Chapter 12.

It seems your bucket as alot of holes in it.
Nothing so far is lining up.
All because of your cherry picking one verse.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Had you read on down in Revelation 5 to verse 5 and not cherry pick one verse out of 14 veses. You would have found in verse 5 that Christ Jesus open the seals, so the seals are not closed. Have you any idea what those seven seals are and what they represent in the book of Revelation.

Verse 5---"And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof"

The Root of David is Christ Jesus.and Christ Jesus loosed the seven seals, So the seven seals not closed as you may think they are.
Next time maybe instead of your cherry picking one verse, it would do you well to read the whole chapter and find out what the subject and article is about, before you cherry pick just one verse out of 14 veses in Revelation
Chapter 5.

As for what you given ---->Daniel 7:25 Revelation 12:14 Daniel 12:7

Seeing you have no clue or idea what Revelation 12:14 is about, the woman is Israel, had you back up to verse 5 and verse 13, you would found in verse 5 the man child to rule all nation's with a rod of iron. This being Christ Jesus
Revelation 19:11-15.

You know in Revelation chapter 12 there are 17 verses, but you cherry pick one verse out of 17 verses.
Which don't even line up to Daniel 7:25 or Daniel 12:7.
Maybe you should read the chapter and find out what the subject and article is about before you cherry pick one verse out of the 17 verses in Revelation Chapter 12.

It seems your bucket as alot of holes in it.
Nothing so far is lining up.
All because of your cherry picking one verse.

You have asked me to show you only One parallel, and I did two. Now, you accuse me of cherry picking? How very strange!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yes, but who was the "man of lawlessness" that came before the return? And, Rev 22:10 says not to seal up its words.

My take is, man of lawlessness is just a general expression. It means, till, the LORD comes, all will be tested and the wicket will be known from the righteous.

22:10, is probably an allusion that, when time is close to coming of Lord, the meaning of prophecies will be unsealed. It may be, second woe and third woe, which are near each other. Second woe was the Bab, and third woe, Bahaulllah. When the Bab appeared in Persia, He prepared people for meeting with the Lord (Him who God shall make manifest). The Bab, who was close to the Manifestation of Bahaullah had revealed many of these sealed words. For example, He taught Resurrection is not physical, and Return is a spiritual return.

 

[Faithofchristian]

You have asked me to show you only One parallel, and I did two. Now, you accuse me of cherry picking? How very strange!

Well it's obvious that your cherry picking, when you only produce one verse out of
14 to 17 verses.

Had you read Revelation chapter 6, you'll find all 7 seals have been open, otherwise a person couldn't read what is happening in those 7 seals.if the those 7 seals were closed. Now could they.
So it's obvious those 7 seals are not sealed up,closed.
If a person reads Chapter 6 verse's 1-3,
They will find in
Verse 1--"And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

So here we find the Lamb ( Christ Jesus) opening the seals, and then in each seal being explained what is happening.
So the seals are not sealed, closed as people are being taught.
If the seals were sealed,closed, each verse wouldn't say as in verse 3--'And when he ( Christ Jesus) had opened the second seal"

By this shows the seals are not sealed nor closed. But are open.

 

[Marcion]

Christ is lamenting how the Hebrew people have treated their prophets of old, and the absurd reasons used to justify their behaviour in putting to death God's messengers.

Remember though that this is just a personal projection of the author of gMatthew!
He made up this text through his own imagination without having any source for it.
Do not mistake the imaginations of the gospel writers for the real words of Yeshua the Nazarene!
So "Christ" is lamenting this only in the imagination of the writer of gMatthew.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Remember though that this is just a personal projection of the author of gMatthew!
He made up this text through his own imagination without having any source for it.
Do not mistake the imaginations of the gospel writers for the real words of Yeshua the Nazarene!
So "Christ" is lamenting this only in the imagination of the writer of gMatthew.

That’s not how the Christians, nor Baha’is see the gospel of Matthew. This thread is essentially part of an ongoing discussion between a Christian and some Baha’is. We are the only two groups that see the gospels as inspired by God and under His care and protection.

I’m not sure what @Faithofchristian was hoping for when he started this thread in the open debates section. The only two faith communities that genuinely revere the Gospels are the Christians and Baha’is.

The Jews , Christians, Muslims and Baha’is see their sacred writings as from God and protected. That’s not part of your belief I know. I respect you have a different outlook and that’s fine. Perhaps you should be more accepting of those who think differently from?

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Reading Arabic and Persian does not make you free from prejudice and able to provide reliable translations.

Like many English speaking people I don't read or speak Arabic or Persian. I rely on good quality translations.

What is helpful for Baha'is is that Baha'u'llah appointed Abdu'l-Baha as His successor who in turn appointed twin successors with the Guardian and the Universal House of Justice. The whole question of succession after Muhammad is problematic.

Both Abdu'l-Baha and particularly Shohgi Effendi spoke English and provided authoritative interpretations.

Its good that you speak Arabic and Persian, but I would always rely on an interpretation that I can trust. If we can not find English translations of the Baha'i writings that we both agree are reliable then it makes our conversation difficult.

When you start making statements that completely contradict well known Baha'i writings based on your own translations I'm naturally suspicious.

1- To judge a translations quality, you have to know both languages. You claim you rely on Good quality translation while you don't have the necessary means to make such a judgment.

2- Shoghi's translations are riddled with errors, but it's no use arguing with you on that because no matter how many instances I show you, you won't believe nor can you understand.

3- Yes the quotes I cite contradict the well known Quotes that are specially handpicked and translated for Baha'is in the West. Did you really expect Shoghi to translate the numerous problematic statements in the Baha'i writings and create more reasons for Baha'is to leave the already dwindling population? No, I don't either. The manner that Baha'i scripture is suppressed and distorted is well known in the academic community. For example this is what the Ex-Baha'i Professor Juan Cole writes:

"The statements of the Universal House of Justice must be understood against a background of twentieth-century Bahā’ī translation practice, in which it has been the custom to limit the amount of material translated, to suppress large parts of the scriptural corpus by simply not making them available or by ensuring they stay out of print, and by translating in such a way as to build bridges to Western converts and potential converts. The purpose of such translation is not academic accuracy, but building up a seemingly seamless scriptural corpus in English that smooths over internal contradictions and supports the contemporary 'party line;' and making the scriptural corpus bland enough and 'naturalized' enough in English to ensure it does not pose a Public Relations problem inside or outside the community." Tablet of the Maiden

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

.... We are the only two groups that see the gospels as inspired by God and under His care and protection.

I’m not sure what @Faithofchristian was hoping for when he started this thread in the open debates section. The only two faith communities that genuinely revere the Gospels are the Christians and Baha’is. ...

Why do you insist on spreading false statements? Everyone knows Baha'is believe that Christian scripture is not wholly authentic and the Quran is authentic:

"As to the question raised by the Racine Assembly in connection with Bahá'u'lláh's statement in the 'Gleanings' concerning the sacrifice of Ishmael: Although this statement does not agree with that made in the Bible, Genesis 22:9, the friends should unhesitatingly, and for reasons that are only too obvious, give precedence to the sayings of Bahá'u'lláh which, it should be pointed out, are fully corroborated by the Qur'an, which book is more authentic than the Bible including both the New and the Old Testaments. The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh." (From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States and Canada, July 28, 1936: Bahá'í News, No. 103, p. 1, October 1936)​

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Well it's obvious that your cherry picking, when you only produce one verse out of
14 to 17 verses.

Had you read Revelation chapter 6, you'll find all 7 seals have been open, otherwise a person couldn't read what is happening in those 7 seals.if the those 7 seals were closed. Now could they.
So it's obvious those 7 seals are not sealed up,closed.
If a person reads Chapter 6 verse's 1-3,
They will find in
Verse 1--"And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

So here we find the Lamb ( Christ Jesus) opening the seals, and then in each seal being explained what is happening.
So the seals are not sealed, closed as people are being taught.
If the seals were sealed,closed, each verse wouldn't say as in verse 3--'And when he ( Christ Jesus) had opened the second seal"

By this shows the seals are not sealed nor closed. But are open.

You convinently ignored my question. I asked you, when was the seven seals opened? Which year?

 

[ajay0]

I consider Bahaullah a great prophet due to the nobility of his teachings.

His teachings share the same theme of Sri Ramakrishna of Hinduism, who also considered all religions to be sister religions pointing to the Divine, and that the differences between them are of a superficial nature.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Why do you insist on spreading false statements? Everyone knows Baha'is believe that Christian scripture is not wholly authentic and the Quran is authentic:

"As to the question raised by the Racine Assembly in connection with Bahá'u'lláh's statement in the 'Gleanings' concerning the sacrifice of Ishmael: Although this statement does not agree with that made in the Bible, Genesis 22:9, the friends should unhesitatingly, and for reasons that are only too obvious, give precedence to the sayings of Bahá'u'lláh which, it should be pointed out, are fully corroborated by the Qur'an, which book is more authentic than the Bible including both the New and the Old Testaments. The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh." (From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States and Canada, July 28, 1936: Bahá'í News, No. 103, p. 1, October 1936)​

That's a good example of taking one passage in isolation and ignoring other statements. Therefore you have twisted my words and the Baha'i Faiths position to imply it means something it doesn't.

The other side of the coin are statements from Baha'u'llah and Adbu'l-Baha that absolutely support the authenticity of the Bible;

Bahá'u'lláh writes concerning the Books of Christians and the peoples of other Faiths:
"...the words of the verses themselves eloquently testify to the truth that they are of God."
Bahá'u'lláh, The Kitáb-i-Iqan

"You must know the Old and New Testaments as the Word of God"
'Abdu'l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace

"Surely the Bible is the book of God"
'Abdu'l-Bahá, Paris Talks,

"...We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also? What would be left to that people to cling to..."
Bahá'u'lláh, The Kitáb-i-Iqan

"That city is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus the Gospel
Bahá'u'lláh, The Kitáb-i-Iqan

So what does Shoghi Effendi mean when he says not wholly authentic?

The Universal House of Justice is authorised by Abdu'l-Baha to resolve difficult problems.

Let's see what they have to say:

You ask for elucidation of the statement made on behalf of the Guardian in this letter of 11 February 1944, “When ‘Abdu’l-Bahá states we believe what is in the Bible, He means in substance. Not that we believe every word of it to be taken literally or that every word is the authentic saying of the Prophet.” Is it not clear that what Shoghi Effendi means here is that we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Moses and Christ in the Old and New Testaments are Their exact words, but that, in view of the general principle enunciated by Bahá’u’lláh in the “Kitáb-i-Iqán” that God’s Revelation is under His care and protection, we can be confident that the essence, or essential elements, of what these two Manifestations of God intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in these two Books.
(Universal House of Justice, 1987 Sept 14, Resurrection of Christ)

So we can not say that the words recorded in the Gospels and Torah are the exact words of Christ and Moses. However God's Revelation is under His care and protection. Therefore we can be confident that what these two Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded.

 

[Dawnofhope]

1- To judge a translations quality, you have to know both languages. You claim you rely on Good quality translation while you don't have the necessary means to make such a judgment.

2- Shoghi's translations are riddled with errors, but it's no use arguing with you on that because no matter how many instances I show you, you won't believe nor can you understand.

3- Yes the quotes I cite contradict the well known Quotes that are specially handpicked and translated for Baha'is in the West. Did you really expect Shoghi to translate the numerous problematic statements in the Baha'i writings and create more reasons for Baha'is to leave the already dwindling population? No, I don't either. The manner that Baha'i scripture is suppressed and distorted is well known in the academic community. For example this is what the Ex-Baha'i Professor Juan Cole writes:

"The statements of the Universal House of Justice must be understood against a background of twentieth-century Bahā’ī translation practice, in which it has been the custom to limit the amount of material translated, to suppress large parts of the scriptural corpus by simply not making them available or by ensuring they stay out of print, and by translating in such a way as to build bridges to Western converts and potential converts. The purpose of such translation is not academic accuracy, but building up a seemingly seamless scriptural corpus in English that smooths over internal contradictions and supports the contemporary 'party line;' and making the scriptural corpus bland enough and 'naturalized' enough in English to ensure it does not pose a Public Relations problem inside or outside the community." Tablet of the Maiden

The Universal House of Justice has established agencies at the World Centre to assist it in analyzing, classifying, and coordinating the Persian, Arabic and English texts and in facilitating the English-language translation work. Such work requires a command of the relevant languages. It also requires a profound understanding of the purpose and the character of Bahá’u’lláh’s Revelation as well as the historical circumstances in which it unfolded. To translate even a single verse, one needs to draw on a great deal of knowledge and experience, if the final rendition is to resonate in the hearts and minds of readers and remain faithful to the original. I am in no doubt you don't meet the high qualifications to undertake such translation work and from what I know of Juan Cole, he didn't either.

Bahá’u’lláh's Revelation comprises more than one hundred volumes in the original Persian and Arabic languages. ‘Abdu’l-Bahá’s written works too are in Persian and Arabic, though a few are in Turkish. We are fortunate that much of the correspondence of the Guardian was penned in English, but a significant percentage was sent to the believers in the East as well. Bahá’u’lláh’s Revelation thus far has been translated into nearly 800 different languages. If we are to ensure the high standard of translation befitting of the Manifestation of God for this age it is clearly a monumental enterprise.

Not too long after the first Universal House of Justice was elected they highlighted the problem well.

The matter of translation is a major problem. As you yourself know only too well, to convey exactly the meaning and flavour of a passage from one language to another is often impossible and one can but labour to approach as near as possible to the unattainable perfection. Even our Beloved Guardian, whose skill in this art amounted to genius, characterized his translation of the "Kitáb-i-Iqán" as "one more attempt to introduce to the West, in language however inadequate, this book of unsurpassed pre-eminence among the writings of the Author of the Bahá'í Revelation, and he expressed the hope "that it may assist others in their efforts to approach what must always be regarded as the unattainable goal -- a befitting rendering of Bahá'u'lláh's matchless utterance."

The difficulty of translation increases when two languages express the thoughts and metaphors of widely differing cultures; thus, it is infinitely more difficult for a European to conceive the thought patterns expressed in Arabic or Persian than to understand a passage written in English. Moreover, the Beloved Guardian was not only a translator but the inspired Interpreter of the Holy Writings; thus, where a passage in Persian or Arabic could give rise to two different expressions in English he would know which one to convey. Similarly he would be much better equipped than an average translator to know which metaphor to employ in English to express a Persian metaphor which might be meaningless in literal translation.

Thus, in general, speakers of other European tongues will obtain a more accurate translation by following the Guardian's English translation than by attempting at this stage in Bahá'í history to translate directly from the original.

This does not mean, however, that the translators should not also check their translations with the original texts if they are familiar with Persian or Arabic. There may be many instances where the exact meaning of the English text is unclear to them and this can be made evident by comparison with the original.
(From a letter dated 8 December 1964 written by the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer)