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Is being gay a sin according to your religion?

Sundance

pursuing the Divine Beloved
Premium Member
No it doesn't what? Say they had a right to own slaves of other people?

Lev 25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

Lev 25:46 And you shall take them for inheritance to your sons after you, to hold for a possession; you may enslave them FOREVER. But on your brothers, the sons of Israel, one over another, you shall not rule over him with severity.

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Exo 21:4 If his master has provided him a woman, and she have born him sons or daughters; the woman and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself. (Breeding of slave to pass on.)

That word - strangers - means non-native - foreigner.

Also - Christians are trying to use some Tanakh Laws such as the supposed homosexual laws, - so, - it is ridiculous to say they ignore OT laws.

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I know what the word means, and you missed one itty bitty detail about the verses you quoted.... the Ancient Israelites were given the right to make slaves of the sojourners among them, but not to go into a foreign land and (but, for profit) make slaves of the foreigners there, which is what happened with the Slave Trade. And once again, those verses clearly speak about Ancient Israelites, not 17th century Englishmen. Tell you what, until you can provide me with an unequivocally universal command from God (meaning, God speaking to or about the whole human race, not just a specific ancient group of people who were scattered across the four corners of the earth), I will stick with my previous statements on the matter. You have done absolutely nothing substantial to change my opinion on the matter.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
What do you make of the differences in American culture about the way we view female homosexuality and male homosexuality? :):)
I chalk that up to 2 things. 1. Men may or may not admit it but they will fantasize about sex with two women. It appeals to them however sex with men disgusts them. 2. Men are the ones making the most noise about this and as such, since they loathe male homosexuality much more, hence the focus.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
I think probably not. When I was an agnostic, I did many many things I try very hard not to do now. I had some friends during that time who didn';t want to continue our friendship once I became a Christian
Did you ever take a moment and ask yourself, or even them, why they no longer wanted to be your friends? What is it about that faith that causes some people to actually break off friendships?? A darn good question, isn't it?
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
I chalk that up to 2 things. 1. Men may or may not admit it but they will fantasize about sex with two women. It appeals to them however sex with men disgusts them. 2. Men are the ones making the most noise about this and as such, since they loathe male homosexuality much more, hence the focus.
It's not just an American thing, either. It's widespread in various cultures. Being penetrated by another man or male is usually viewed as "lowering" oneself to the status of a woman or being "emasculated". It's a very ancient notion and was prevalent throughout the Hellenic world, especially. In the Hellenic world, the one who penetrates wasn't really stigmatized, because to penetrate, in of itself, was viewed as masculine. So for an adult man to take on a young male lover or a male who is viewed as feminine and penetrate him wasn't viewed as a problem. Those ideas spread throughout the Mediterranean, the Middle East, North Africa, etc. which all tend to have "macho" cultures. They also have very sizable homosexual "undergrounds" and the practice of pederasty is common.

Basically, it's a "macho" patriarchal view and it's tied into sexism. Men raised in those cultures tend to be pretty neurotic when it comes to that, because it's so culturally tied into their notions of what masculinity is, itself. They don't want to be seen as "sissies", "punks" and "b_tches". Look at prison, for example. Male prisons are hypermasculine environments and male on male rape is used as a way of humiliating and dominating another male, and that's because our culture tends to see taking the penetrative role in sex as inherently being dominating and an act of possession.

Anyway, that view of sexuality and imbuing genitals with some sort of binary categorization or function has basically made our culture pretty bonkers about sex. Sexism, homophobia and transphobia are all strongly interlinked and they're mostly the product of male neurosis with leads them to suppress and hurt themselves and also to oppress and hurt others. Men in general need to do a lot of self-searching and grow the hell up, in general.

Women's sexuality has been much more ignored, historically and socially. They really didn't care what women did, as long as the women the men wanted were sexually available to them. Of course, the typical straight man's fantasy of women being sexual with each other is male-centric and heterosexist. It erases and objectifies lesbians and their actual sexuality. Because they obviously just need to be banged well enough by a guy in order to "fix" them and make them see what they're "missing", and obviously lesbianism exists to serve male needs. :rolleyes:
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
I having nothing against homosexuals.
I just don't understand what any guy sees in another guys butt.
Yeeeeesh! Yuk.
That's like saying you don't understand why straight men are attracted to a woman's genitals. People are attracted to people, not organs in isolation. There's gay guys who don't even like anal sex and there's actually straight people who don't like vaginal sex, either.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
God has made it clear that baptism is the outward demonstration of repentence and a changed heart. Cherished sin must be relinquished. A woman with 14 convictions for shoplifting in the previous 18 months must surely declare that that sin has been abandoned before baptism. Communion is a very serious thing, it is the most sacred and important of sacraments. One must approach it with a clean and renewed conscience. There have been times when I have not taken communion when I felt I wasn't right with God. Once again, a sinful condition not abandoned precludes participation

May I ask what happens if you take Communion when you are not "clean"?
I know, a bit off-topic, but I am curious.

Ciao

- viole
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
It may help explain your apparent disdain for efficacy of scripture....
I don't have disdain for the efficacy of scripture. I have disdain for the careless attitude in thinking that what is printed on the page in modern English can be taken at face value, without any concern for the context in which it was written, that leads to convictions that some people are sinful just for being who they are.
 

jeager106

Learning more about Jehovah.
Premium Member
That's like saying you don't understand why straight men are attracted to a woman's genitals. People are attracted to people, not organs in isolation. There's gay guys who don't even like anal sex and there's actually straight people who don't like vaginal sex, either.

Hummmm??????????????????? Good point! Never looked at the "thinking" through another's situation.
I like sex as long as it doesn't cause physical pain or bleeding. Not into pain, sex should
be fun.

I once asked a long ago "playmate" of mine what she thought about oral sex.
She innocently replied, " I'd rather do it than talk about it."

Sooooooo. I did the only thing a guy could do.
I was glad to teach her what it was about. :>)
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Did you ever take a moment and ask yourself, or even them, why they no longer wanted to be your friends? What is it about that faith that causes some people to actually break off friendships?? A darn good question, isn't it?
When I left Christianity, the "friends" I lost thought I was demonically possessed.

I like sex as long as it doesn't cause physical pain or bleeding. Not into pain, sex should

Whoever said pain and blood can't be fun? Hurt me good and I'll screw your brains out. :D
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
You're trusting. Your own understanding of ancient texts and cultures...
It is not the words themselves....but the reality that the concepts represent...I get it.. I do not have to pore over ancient script that long go have been translated to a reasonable standard...
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
I don't have disdain for the efficacy of scripture. I have disdain for the careless attitude in thinking that what is printed on the page in modern English can be taken at face value, without any concern for the context in which it was written, that leads to convictions that some people are sinful just for being who they are.
Ok...I understand you do not want homosexuals to feel guilty....but revising the meaning to represent the opposite of what it means is not the honest way. Why not just disregard it and leave it at that....
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
May I ask what happens if you take Communion when you are not "clean"?
I know, a bit off-topic, but I am curious.

Ciao

- viole
Its not a matter of "being clean", it is a matter of whether your heart is right, you have repented of sins, and your faith is strong. I struggle at times with the faith part, nothing happens if you take communion when you might have these problems, it is simply a matter of honesty before God, and the rite is a demonstration of total commitment, total faith, total repentance, at that point in time. If you partake when you know you aren't right with God, then you are lying to God
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
It is not the words themselves....but the reality that the concepts represent...I get it.. I do not have to pore over ancient script that long go have been translated to a reasonable standard...
Correct. Many can read the Biblical text in the original Greek, My father in law was Greek, and except for a few words not used in modern Greek, he could read the ancient Greek texts. countless translators have for centuries translated the original, with the meanings remaining the same. As to context, the books were written by the Apostles of Christ, for Christians to know and understand the fundamental Doctrines, as well as to address various problems that were arising in the Apostolic Church, the gnostic heresy, paganism, pantheism, and all the rest. The books of the Bible were written to apply to all Christians in perpetuity, the intent of the Apostles is crystal clear, they were defining doctrines that were to be held and never compromised. Those who today say they can be both a Christian and ignore some things they don't like, well, that is between they and God. The books were written at a time when pagan Rome used it's iron fist to control those in it's empire, but the Call to Christianity has always been the same, come out of whatever culture you may live at a particular point in time, as far as possible without compromising foundation principles, be good citizen's and share the Gospel freely with all, but never stray from the path given for you to walk.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Did you ever take a moment and ask yourself, or even them, why they no longer wanted to be your friends? What is it about that faith that causes some people to actually break off friendships?? A darn good question, isn't it?
I no longer participated in the parties, I didn;t take long motorcycle rides with them on Sunday, I didn't appreciate some of the language that I used to use but, then tried to stop, the off color jokes no longer amused me, we simply ceased having a lot of things in common. There was no " break" They simply stopped inviting me to do things they knew I would prefer not to do any longer, and I understood that. If they needed help, they know I would step up, just as I know they would help me
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I know what the word means, and you missed one itty bitty detail about the verses you quoted.... the Ancient Israelites were given the right to make slaves of the sojourners among them, but not to go into a foreign land and (but, for profit) make slaves of the foreigners there, which is what happened with the Slave Trade. And once again, those verses clearly speak about Ancient Israelites, not 17th century Englishmen. Tell you what, until you can provide me with an unequivocally universal command from God (meaning, God speaking to or about the whole human race, not just a specific ancient group of people who were scattered across the four corners of the earth), I will stick with my previous statements on the matter. You have done absolutely nothing substantial to change my opinion on the matter.
Christ said, " do unto others as you would have them do unto you", so, I guess if you wanted to be a slave, owning them would be OK. However, I know of no one who wants to be a slave. Paul said that all were equal before God, no male nor female, no Greek or Jew, no free man or slave. He was saying that God views Genders as equal, races as equal, and any station in life as equal. We are to follow the examples given, so how could I enslave someone who in all respects is equal to me ? How would God feel about that ? Slavery is always based upon one race, one nation, one religion, or one gender being superior to another, can't be done if all are equal. Slavery is alive and well in some muslim countries, and they have been eager participants in slavery since the founding of their "religion", why ? If you read the Koran and Hadith, their holy books, you will find muslim superiority virtually on every page. and clear justification for slavery. I don't much care what the ancient Jews did, or, for the most part what they believe and do today. Slavery is one of the greatest evils ever perpetrated on humanity, and for those false Christians who practiced and supported it, God will judge them extremely harshly
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
It is not the words themselves....but the reality that the concepts represent...I get it.. I do not have to pore over ancient script that long go have been translated to a reasonable standard...
Yes. You do. Otherwise, you come up with weird and incorrect ideas, such as the bible condemns homosexuality.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I am aware of that. However, we were discussing whether or not homosexuals can become heterosexual, and this "spiritual" side that research has not addressed; the context was not about Church history.
I have seen homosexuals become celibate because of their sincere faith, and I have seen them become happy Christian heterosexuals. I believe God works supernaturally in peoples lives. I have seen heroin addicts who have been through all kinds of "scientific" rehab programs who always re offended, who stole to get money for dope, totally given up on by society, living on the street with a needle almost perpetually in their arm, or back of their knees, or between their toes, anywhere to find a vein, change, virtually over night, who have been clean for years, and attribute their recovery to a miracle by God.......................................... Science does'nt study, catalog, or believe in miracles from God, perhaps they should
 
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