Is being gay a sin according to your religion?

[shmogie]

Great, so now you know it's not a choice.

Around 10% of the population is attracted to members of the same sex, as is the norm for around 10% of the population.

It wasn't a choice for me, because I am consistent with the sex I was born as,, perhaps it is a choice, or the result of environment for those not consistent with their sex. In other words, they may not have been born that way

 

[SkepticThinker]

i use the termgender and sex interchangibly, perhaps wrongly. I will use the term sex for what a person is born as, `I will use the term gender identity when someone identifies themselves as not being the sex they were born as, or, being a variation from over 90% of the population who identify themselves as the sex they were born. Clear ?

You’re talking about something completely different when you’re talking about gender identity. It’s not synonymous with sexual orientation (i.e. heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality).

 

[SkepticThinker]

It wasn't a choice for me, because I am consistent with the sex I was born as,, perhaps it is a choice, or the result of environment for those not consistent with their sex. In other words, they may not have been born that way

It's not a choice for anybody. Come on now. You're trying very hard not to see the obvious.

 

[shmogie]

You have stated many times that people can change through the power of God. Changes in general, for whatever reason, just don't work. Even diets typically fail because change is never just that easy.

If you want to see anger, you should try condoning bullying. Then you'll get to see anger. I also do not like ideologies that insist people who are doing nothing wrong must change, that the only basis on insistence they change is because of an ancient book wrote by people who thought slinging birds blood around was a good idea, and because of researchers who have either been misrepresented, organizations that have been misquoted, or flawed researchers who later get caught with male lovers or prostitutes.
And come to terms with what?

Actually, that is not at all what I'm in therapy for, and my therapist says it's OK to have that bitterness. Let it out (in a constructive way that doesn't harm others) if I need to.

Actually I have. But when someone says "pray the gay away," it does provoke bitterness and resentment because I know what such a mentality does to people, and I know the people who promote it. I know it destroys families, I know it makes people homeless as teenagers, and I know it causes very deep emotional scaring.

I'm not creating straw men. When facts and science failed to persuade you (as they do most people), I switched tactics to the emotional level, which is my own experience, and how it was a part of the reason my childhood and teens were so miserable.

Because if those like Dr. King can give his life working to his Dream a reality, of people walking hand-in-hand, of people being judged by the content of their character, if he can give his life for such a cause the least I can do is try to educate people on an online forum.

It's not my problem if you promote this reparative therapy, a form of therapy that doesn't work. People just are not changed by "the power of God." I've cited evidence of this, all you've done is make claims.

Like it or not, I shackled, chained, whipped, and abused under Christ. He was no liberator.

YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN THIS PROOF BUT YOU HAVE TIME AND TIME AGAIN IGNORED IT!!! I even used the full quotation of what your "genetic wholeness" or whatever uses, where in the same statement, very close to where the bit "genetic wholeness" quoted, the phrase "no choice" appears.

This is getting bizarre ! Evidence is not proof. I see, calling me a bigot, a hater, one who is going to hell, with absolutely no evidence is, constructive ? What if I was what you say, and to let out my anger and frustration I called you a bull dyke, or ms. penis finger, or butch, is that constructive ? I resent your labels as much as you do those. You are blaming me for actions of people I never knew,I don't know you, I have never done anything to you. I never said "pray the gay way" that's stupid, and I don't use the term gay, unless you mean, happy, as the word has meant since English has been spoken. Why do you keep blathering about me promoting some kind, any kind, of therapy, I have never done so

 

[shmogie]

You’re talking about something completely different when you’re talking about gender identity. It’s not synonymouswith sexual orientation (i.e. heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality).

What

I"m curious as to why you referenced the site then.

Is it an LDS site ? I truly thought it was a homosexual support site. I won't reference in the future

 

[shmogie]

It's not a choice for anybody. Come on now. You're trying very hard not to see the obvious.

Here we disagree.
It isn't obvious to me, or to many psychiatrists, many biologists, many geneticists, and many theologians

 

[sojourner]

Here we go, again, does all the research you have quoted, all the links you have provided, add up to a clear, unassailable consensus opinion across multiple disciplines as to why, exactly, homosexuality exists in humans ?

Why does the cause matter? If people ARE, and they're happy with who they are, what's wrong with being who they are -- no matter the cause? What, precisely is wrong with sexual attraction and the expression of that attraction in responsible ways? What, precisely, is sinful and abominable about same-sex attraction? Precisely? Until you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it is sinful and an abomination, I'm not buying it. Show me a scientific study that proves it. Heck! Show me one single bible verse that lays out precisely why it is sinful, and I'll recant everything I've said thus far.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Evidence is not proof.

Evidence is proof. How do you prove anything without evidence?

You are blaming me for actions of people I never knew,I don't know you, I have never done anything to you.

I said people like you. Those who insist homosexuality is a choice, something that is sinful, something that is not normal or "congruent," those who won't even associate with homosexuals. I am talking about people with the same attitudes you have.

I never said "pray the gay way" that's stupid, and I don't use the term gay, unless you mean, happy, as the word has meant since English has been spoken.

syn·o·nym
ˈsinəˌnim/
noun
noun: synonym; plural noun: synonyms
a word or phrase that means exactly or nearly the same as another word or phrase in the same language, for example shut is a synonym of close.
Then you must just be ignorant of the function of language and fluidity of the meanings of words. Gay has come to mean homosexual. No, we aren't using the same terms or expressions, but "pray the gay away" is an expression that is used to describe religious-based reparative therapy, something you have promoted and endorsed as successful. Even though data and statistics prove otherwise.

 

[SkepticThinker]

This is getting bizarre ! Evidence is not proof. I see, calling me a bigot, a hater, one who is going to hell, with absolutely no evidence is, constructive ? What if I was what you say, and to let out my anger and frustration I called you a bull dyke, or ms. penis finger, or butch, is that constructive ? I resent your labels as much as you do those. You are blaming me for actions of people I never knew,I don't know you, I have never done anything to you. I never said "pray the gay way" that's stupid, and I don't use the term gay, unless you mean, happy, as the word has meant since English has been spoken. Why do you keep blathering about me promoting some kind, any kind, of therapy, I have never done so

You have said several times that "therapy" has the ability to change peoples' sexual orientation.

 

[SkepticThinker]

What

What gender a person identifies as is not the same thing as a person's sexual orientation. They are different things.

Is it an LDS site ? I truly thought it was a homosexual support site. I won't reference in the future

Have you not seen the site? Why direct us to go there then?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Here we disagree.
It isn't obvious to me, or to many psychiatrists, many biologists, many geneticists, and many theologians

It's obvious to all of those people (maybe excluding some theologians).
It is obvious to you when it comes to yourself. Try extending that understanding to other people.

 

[InChrist]

Why does the cause matter? If people ARE, and they're happy with who they are, what's wrong with being who they are -- no matter the cause? What, precisely is wrong with sexual attraction and the expression of that attraction in responsible ways? What, precisely, is sinful and abominable about same-sex attraction? Precisely? Until you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it is sinful and an abomination, I'm not buying it. Show me a scientific study that proves it. Heck! Show me one single bible verse that lays out precisely why it is sinful, and I'll recant everything I've said thus far.

I think it matters because...it is not who people ARE or who God intended them to be. Nor do I think anyone is truly happy outside of God's design and will. Females have certain characteristics and males have certain characteristics which I believe God gave each to compliment the other. In Ephesians, even more important than the earthy marriage relationship between a husband and wife is the spiritual picture which a godly marriage represents between Christ and the church. Of course, not all believe in God or care about the church. Nevertheless, I think God's purpose and design for humanity includes everyone and for humans to come up with their own alternative plans will never actually bring happiness.

I have known several friends over the years who claim to be homosexuals, yet, I don't believe that is who they are. Instead, I think who they are was stolen from them and they are hurting, confused , and believe a lie. I had a best friend while growing up who became a lesbian. Her brother is homosexual and her younger sister became a prostitute and committed suicide. Even as a child my friend was full of rage I didn't understand until years later when I realized her father, who was an esteemed psychiatrist, had sexually and repeatedly molested all his children, My friend is in a same sex relationship and I'm sure she would say that she is happy, but I know she is still full of rage buried inside that comes out in various ways, including alcoholism. There is no doubt in my mind that she and her siblings had who they were meant to be according to God's design stolen from them and they are weighed down in the lie of the world.

But I think the good news for anyone who is caught in any lie regarding any sin is that ... Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. 1 Timothy 1:15

 

[Ingledsva]

The CLDS as a denomination is not considered Christian by many, They are not sola scriptura, and their religion is based upon the mason rites, their founder and prophet apparently had hallucinations, They are not any form of authority to me on anything

Which means squat!

They are a Bible based organization, - leaving out pertinent information, to push their Christian viewpoint against homosexuality.

And YOU used their data.

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[Ingledsva]

I think it matters because...it is not who people ARE or who God intended them to be. Nor do I think anyone is truly happy outside of God's design and will. Females have certain characteristics and males have certain characteristics which I believe God gave each to compliment the other. In Ephesians, even more important than the earthy marriage relationship between a husband and wife is the spiritual picture which a godly marriage represents between Christ and the church. Of course, not all believe in God or care about the church. Nevertheless, I think God's purpose and design for humanity includes everyone and for humans to come up with their own alternative plans will never actually bring happiness.

I have known several friends over the years who claim to be homosexuals, yet, I don't believe that is who they are. Instead, I think who they are was stolen from them and they are hurting, confused , and believe a lie. I had a best friend while growing up who became a lesbian. Her brother is homosexual and her younger sister became a prostitute and committed suicide. Even as a child my friend was full of rage I didn't understand until years later when I realized her father, who was an esteemed psychiatrist, had sexually and repeatedly molested all his children, My friend is in a same sex relationship and I'm sure she would say that she is happy, but I know she is still full of rage buried inside that comes out in various ways, including alcoholism. There is no doubt in my mind that she and her siblings had who they were meant to be according to God's design stolen from them and they are weighed down in the lie of the world.

But I think the good news for anyone who is caught in any lie regarding any sin is that ... Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. 1 Timothy 1:15

I think nature proves the Bible idea of only male and female pairs coming together - and anything else being sin - is false.

If a God created everything, - then It created homosexuality, and other variations of sex, - which we see throughout the animal kingdom, including critters that change sex depending on temperature and need, etc.

That Bible idea is proven false - by what actually is.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

Oh, but I do. Both Smith and his father were deeply associated with the masons, many rites of your church are reflections of masonic practice. I have studied in depth the four denominations that came out of the 19th century as having "special revelation directly from God". The CLDS, Seventh Day Adventists, Christian Scientists, Jehovah's Witnesses. One wonders why, if God needed to expand on Christ's teachings, and those of the Apostles, he waited almost 1,900 years to do it. And, even more surprisingly, he gave four different , conflicting messages, to four groups, within 70 years of each other,. Of course, he only truly spoke to Joseph Smith, right? Regardless, you are right, you shouldn't give a rats rear what anybody else thinks. If you are following God the way you believe he has lead, that is all that counts, and all that should be important to you., Heck, I love members of your denomination, two of my closest friends are members of your church. I simply do not see pronouncements of your church as having any authority or relevance to me.

Again - you are making a statement, - not providing proof.

You were asked for evidence.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

Here we disagree.
It isn't obvious to me, or to many psychiatrists, many biologists, many geneticists, and many theologians

LOL!

So I guess I can say -

It isn't obvious to me, or to many psychiatrists, many biologists, many geneticists, and even many theologians, - that your bible ideas on sexuality and gender - are correct!

*

 

[shmogie]

LOL!

So I guess I can say -

It isn't obvious to me, or to many psychiatrists, many biologists, many geneticists, and even many theologians, - that your bible ideas on sexuality and gender - are correct!

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Aren't you glad we live in a country where we can disagree freely ?

 

[shmogie]

Again - you are making a statement, - not providing proof.

You were asked for evidence.

*

It's not important to me, I am not trying to win a debate. It's not worth the effort. Any and all can take it or leave it.

 

[shmogie]

Which means squat!

They are a Bible based organization, - leaving out pertinent information, to push their Christian viewpoint against homosexuality.

And YOU used their data.

*

Sorry, they aren't a truly Bible based organization, they have a big ol book that to them is equal to the Bible

 

[Ingledsva]

It's not important to me, I am not trying to win a debate. It's not worth the effort. Any and all can take it or leave it.

It is important to us, and to Katzpur.

You are on a debate forum, - provide proof of your statements, - or we will assume you are just pulling them from you-know-where!

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