Is being gay a sin according to your religion?

[Ingledsva]

Trying to argue the Bible does not condemn homosexual acts is futile, IMO. Here is the Intelinear text:

"Or οὐκ not οἴδατε have you known ὅτι that ἄδικοι unjust (ones) θεοῦ of God βασιλείαν kingdom οὐ not κληρονομήσουσιν; they will inherit? Μὴ Not πλανᾶσθε· be you being misled; οὔτε neither πόρνοι fornicators οὔτε nor εἰδωλολάτραι idolaters οὔτε norμοιχοὶ adulterers οὔτε nor μαλακοὶ soft [men] οὔτε nor ἀρσενοκοῖται liers with males"

Romans 1:27 calls homosexual desires and acts obscene. Such clear language is not open to successful contradiction. While the thinking of many today concerning homosexuality is confused, what the Bible says is clear and unequivocal, IMO.

This is baloney. I have read the Greek as well.

Homosexuals are NOT mentioned in these texts.

I have already given historic commentary on the meaning of arsenokoites.

*

1 CO 6:9 Know you not that the “heathen” shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived: Neither prostitutes (pornos,) nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the morally weak, nor arsenokoites (rapists?)

There are no ancient Greek texts using arsenokoites or its stem as homosexuality. There are uses for both male and female as RAPE.

The Thesaurus Linguae Graecae. TLG has collected and digitized most literary texts written in Greek, from the 8th century BC to the fall of Byzantium in AD 1453. They have 73 references to the arsenokoit stem. There are NO early Greek uses of the word as “homosexual.” LATER - the church decides to translate it as such – then these later texts copy the church original.

And malakos - morally weak - as in a Dandy. Think Jack Sparrow from the Pirate movies. Over-love of fine clothes and possessions, strong liquor, rich food, and loose ladies.

*
And Romans 1 says they turn God into animals and Serpents, and give religious homage to them - IDOLATRY. That is very obviously NOT homosexuality.

Homosexuals don't change the image of God into a Serpent, and have sex in front of it in an act of RELIGIOUS WORSHIP - in honor of the ACT OF CREATION!

The hoops people will jump through to try and make this about homosexuality - just amaze me!



*

 

[djhwoodwerks]

The hoops people will jump through to try and make this about homosexuality - just amaze me!

Lev 18:22 (ESVST) 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

Lev 20:13 (ESVST) 13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

I guess, oh theologian, these aren't about being "GAY" either, are they?

 

[Ingledsva]

Right back at you. It doesn't matter how you try to squeeze around it.

Let's use the scripture that you have quoted.

Do you agree that verse 23 says they made idols to worship and serve instead of God?

In verse 24 you have "wherefore" and "to dishonor their own bodies between themselves" underlined as if they really have an impact on what you want it to say. Let's look at this little word "ALSO". In verse 23 they had made idols to serve and worship in place of God. In verse 24 it says, "Wherefore God "ALSO" gave them up to the uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts". "BECAUSE" they left God to serve idols, He gave them up to the desires of their hearts "ALSO".

You didn't quote the verses that are about the main topic of this thread, for some reason, but here they are.

Rom 1:26-27 (ESVST) 26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Verse 26; "For this reason" God gave them up to dishonorable passions." For what reason? For the reasons listed in the rest of those verses.

Are these verses not talking about homosexuality either?

Lev 18:21-22 (ESVST) 21 You shall not give any of your children to offer them to Molech, and so profane the name of your God:I am the Lord. 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

Lev 20:13 (ESVST) 13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

I have already given the WHOLE section - with commentary - Post number 995!

It very specifically says this is IDOLATRY therefore God gave them up

It adds to this telling us specifically what that IDOLATRY includes by adding that - WHO -

Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four-footed beasts, and serpents.

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:

~~ ~ NOTE: the people in 24 that dishonor their bodies, are the people WHO worship the Act of Creation in 25! Religious Sexuality! ~~~

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of Deity into a lie, and worship and render religious homage to the "Act of Creation" more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

That dishonor of bodies - is Sacred Prostitution, - and is the ONLY thing that INCLUDES both IMAGE/IDOLATRY - and the SEX ACT as WORSHIP.

NONE of this pertains to homosexuals.

*
Lev 18:21-

It is again actually talking about Sacred Sex Prostitutes (Qadesh) – and more then likely female ones.

They change to MOLECH WORSHIP (which has Sacred Sex/Prostitution) at 21 – and at least through 23.

Number 21 is translated incorrectly - the first three words are - Don't - give - seed/semen, next is FOR MOLECH.

Even if you leave verse 22 as “male with male” it would still be talking about Qadesh (Sacred Prostitutes.)

However - the word translated “with” - is also “for” – and there is no “as with” womankind! it is added in!

Lev 18:21 And your seed/semen don't give in copulation to MOLECH, and don't desecrate/prostitute yourself; honor Elohiym, I am YHVH!

Lev 18:22 And FOR/before man; don't lie down for sex in the beds of woman, Idolatrous are these.

Lev 18:23 And also with any beasts don't lay carnally, thus defiling yourself. And thus also woman shall not be employed to serve beasts in copulation. Bestiality it is!

As you can see from both, 22 and 23 are a continuation of 21 which is about Sacred Sex to Molech!

22 Is about Sacred Sex Idolatry - not homosexuality!

Lev 18:30 confirms it is Temple Sex IDOLATRY - by adding -

(KJV) Lev 18:30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs (RITES), which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.

That word translated "customs" is chuqqah - STATUTES/LAWS/RITES

Num 9:3 In the fourteenth day of this month, at even, ye shall keep it in his appointed season: according to all the rites/chuqqah of it, and according to all the ceremonies thereof, shall ye keep it.

Homosexuality is not a LAW-STATUTE-RITE, etc, that they PRACTICED BEFORE!!!!! But Sacred Prostitution for Molech sure was!!!

*
Lev 20:13 -

You can transliterate it differently, as "zakar" translated mankind, is also "remember - commemorate," and "to ebah" is also idolatry!

Lev 20:13 If834 a man376 also lie7901 with854 mankind,2145 as he lieth4904 with a woman,802 both8147 of them have committed6213 an abomination:8441 they shall surely be put to death;4191, 4191 their blood1818shallbe upon them.

Lev. 20:13 If (834) Man (376) lies down (7901) for (854) commemorative (2145) sex/intercourse (4904) woman (802) both (8147) commit (6213) Idolatrous custom/abomination (8441) (worthy of) death (4192) (worthy of) death (4192) bloodshed (1818)

And you will notice we again are referring to MOLECH. Sacred Sex/Prostitution, - As it starts out -


Lev 20:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

Lev 20:2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

Lev 20:3 And I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name.

Lev 20:4 And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man, when he giveth of his seed unto Molech, and kill him not:

Lev 20:5 Then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him, to commit whoredom with Molech, from among their people.

Lev 20:16 And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Actually everything mentioned in Leviticus 20 - was done in Molech Sex worship.

Father with daughter, sex with animals, etc.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

Lev 18:22 (ESVST) 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

Lev 20:13 (ESVST) 13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

I guess, oh theologian, these aren't about being "GAY" either, are they?

NO! See post number 1023.

I included Lev 18:22 and Lev 20:13.

It appears that all of these texts are about Molech worship - including Sacred Sex/Prostitution.

*

 

[Ben Dhyan]

NO! See post number 1023.

I included Lev 18:22 and Lev 20:13.

It appears that all of these texts are about Molech worship - including Sacred Sex/Prostitution.

*

So homos practice a form of Molech worship...even though they may not be aware of it....

 

[Ingledsva]

So homos practice a form of Molech worship...even though they may not be aware of it....

Don't even try to turn it upside down.

Those texts have nothing to do with homosexuals.

*

 

[chevron1]

In religious sect Taoism such as the Celestial Masters, homosexuality is a sin, but not so in classical Taoism. Classical scripture actually discusses homosexuality as part of the streams of transformation. This passage from the Book Of Lieh Tzu is about the diversity of sexual activity and same-sex coupling arises naturally from the stream of change and transformation within Tao:

• 
  There is a beast of Shan-yuan which gives birth after conceiving by itself, the lei. There are birds of the rivers and marshes which give birth after looking at each other, the fish-hawks. There is a creature which is solely female, the giant tortoise; and another which is solely male, the little bee. The men and women of Ssŭ impregnate and conceive without intercourse. Hou Chi was born from a great footprint, Yi Yin from a hollow mulberry tree. Dragonflies breed from moisture, animalculae from vinegar.

• 
  Graham, A.C., The Book Of Lieh Tzu, New York: Columbia Univ. Press, c. 1990, p. 21.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Don't even try to turn it upside down.

Those texts have nothing to do with homosexuals.

*

Leviticus 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

So how is this not a description of homo sex?

 

[Ingledsva]

It is beyond belief to me - that modern people - with educations - and reading ability - still claim homosexuality is a choice.

We have homosexual animals throughout the animal kingdom.

But beyond this we have critters that start out one sex - and change to another. Or are born one-or-the-other depending on need, or temperature.

We have female babies born with penises, and male babies born without them. Babies born with both, etc.

So obviously babies can be in between the sexes, and born homosexual.

It is very obvious that homosexuality is natural and people are born such.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

Leviticus 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

So how is this not a description of homo sex?

Did you even read number 1023????

*

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Did you even read number 1023????

*

You didn't answer my question..why isn't Lev 18:22 a description of homo sex?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

In religious sect Taoism such as the Celestial Masters, homosexuality is a sin, but not so in classical Taoism. Classical scripture actually discusses homosexuality as part of the streams of transformation. This passage from the Book Of Lieh Tzu is about the diversity of sexual activity and same-sex coupling arises naturally from the stream of change and transformation within Tao:

• 
  There is a beast of Shan-yuan which gives birth after conceiving by itself, the lei. There are birds of the rivers and marshes which give birth after looking at each other, the fish-hawks. There is a creature which is solely female, the giant tortoise; and another which is solely male, the little bee. The men and women of Ssŭ impregnate and conceive without intercourse. Hou Chi was born from a great footprint, Yi Yin from a hollow mulberry tree. Dragonflies breed from moisture, animalculae from vinegar.

• 
  Graham, A.C., The Book Of Lieh Tzu, New York: Columbia Univ. Press, c. 1990, p. 21.

chevron1...please explain where you found any implication of homosexual behavior in that excerpt ?

 

[Ingledsva]

You didn't answer my question..why isn't Lev 18:22 a description of homo sex?

For the reasons given in 1023, - read it!

EDIT - Here it is again just for you.

Lev 18:21-

It is again actually talking about Sacred Sex Prostitutes (Qadesh) – and more then likely female ones.

They change to MOLECH WORSHIP (which has Sacred Sex/Prostitution) at 21 – and at least through 23.

Number 21 is translated incorrectly - the first three words are - Don't - give - seed/semen, next is FOR MOLECH.

Even if you leave verse 22 as “male with male” it would still be talking about Qadesh (Sacred Prostitutes.)

However - the word translated “with” - is also “for” – and there is no “as with” womankind! it is added in!

Lev 18:21 And your seed/semen don't give in copulation to MOLECH, and don't desecrate/prostitute yourself; honor Elohiym, I am YHVH!

Lev 18:22 And FOR/before man; don't lie down for sex in the beds of woman, Idolatrous are these.

Lev 18:23 And also with any beasts don't lay carnally, thus defiling yourself. And thus also woman shall not be employed to serve beasts in copulation. Bestiality it is!

As you can see from both, 22 and 23 are a continuation of 21 which is about Sacred Sex to Molech!

22 Is about Sacred Sex Idolatry - not homosexuality!

Lev 18:30 confirms it is Temple Sex IDOLATRY - by adding -

Lev 18:30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs (RITES), which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.

That word translated "customs" is chuqqah - STATUTES/LAWS/RITES

Num 9:3 In the fourteenth day of this month, at even, ye shall keep it in his appointed season: according to all the rites/chuqqah of it, and according to all the ceremonies thereof, shall ye keep it.

Homosexuality is not a LAW-STATUTE-RITE, etc, that they PRACTICED BEFORE!!!!! But Sacred Prostitution for Molech sure was!!!

*

 

[Ben Dhyan]

For the reasons given in 1023, - read it!

EDIT - Here it is again just for you.

Lev 18:21-

It is again actually talking about Sacred Sex Prostitutes (Qadesh) – and more then likely female ones.

They change to MOLECH WORSHIP (which has Sacred Sex/Prostitution) at 21 – and at least through 23.

Number 21 is translated incorrectly - the first three words are - Don't - give - seed/semen, next is FOR MOLECH.

Even if you leave verse 22 as “male with male” it would still be talking about Qadesh (Sacred Prostitutes.)

However - the word translated “with” - is also “for” – and there is no “as with” womankind! it is added in!

Lev 18:21 And your seed/semen don't give in copulation to MOLECH, and don't desecrate/prostitute yourself; honor Elohiym, I am YHVH!

Lev 18:22 And FOR/before man; don't lie down for sex in the beds of woman, Idolatrous are these.

Lev 18:23 And also with any beasts don't lay carnally, thus defiling yourself. And thus also woman shall not be employed to serve beasts in copulation. Bestiality it is!

As you can see from both, 22 and 23 are a continuation of 21 which is about Sacred Sex to Molech!

22 Is about Sacred Sex Idolatry - not homosexuality!

Lev 18:30 confirms it is Temple Sex IDOLATRY - by adding -

Lev 18:30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs (RITES), which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.

That word translated "customs" is chuqqah - STATUTES/LAWS/RITES

Num 9:3 In the fourteenth day of this month, at even, ye shall keep it in his appointed season: according to all the rites/chuqqah of it, and according to all the ceremonies thereof, shall ye keep it.

Homosexuality is not a LAW-STATUTE-RITE, etc, that they PRACTICED BEFORE!!!!! But Sacred Prostitution for Molech sure was!!!

*

Don't be deceived...here is the Jewish translation of Lev 18:22... You shall not lie down with a male, as with a woman: this is an abomination.

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9919/jewish/Chapter-18.htm

 

[Ingledsva]

Don't be deceived...here is the Jewish translation of Lev 18:22... You shall not lie down with a male, as with a woman: this is an abomination.

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9919/jewish/Chapter-18.htm

That modern "English" translation is not correct.

There is NO - "as with a" women in that text.

Look it up for yourself.

It doesn't even start with those words - it starts --

And 'êth (for, beside, with, by) zâkâr (remembered, commemorative, male, etc) don't lie down for sex - in the beds - women - tô‛êbah (disgusting, idolatry) this is.

Again there is no - as with a, - and we have multiple beds of women.

We obviously have later homophobic people translating these texts.

And again - we have Molech worship mentioned.

Perhaps it is talking about group sex with women? LOL!

*

 

[chevron1]

chevron1...please explain where you found any implication of homosexual behavior in that excerpt ?

the all female tortoises and the all male bees have intercourse in a passage about sexual intercourse.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

According to my religion being homophobic is a sin. So there.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

That modern "English" translation is not correct.

There is NO - "as with a" women in that text.

Look it up for yourself.

It doesn't even start with those words - it starts --

And 'êth (for, beside, with, by) zâkâr (remembered, commemorative, male, etc) don't lie down for sex - in the beds - women - tô‛êbah (disgusting, idolatry) this is.

Again there is no - as with a, - and we have multiple beds of women.

We obviously have later homophobic people translating these texts.

And again - we have Molech worship mentioned.

Perhaps it is talking about group sex with women? LOL!

*

But this is a translation of Hebrew by Hebrews....where is your proof these Jews do not understand what their Torah means?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

the all female tortoises and the all male bees have intercourse in a passage about sexual intercourse.

Haha....even if a female tortoise had sex with a male bee....it may be bizarre, but it would not be homo sex....

Get real...quote a passage from the book that clearly implies homo sex is acceptable...

 

[chevron1]

Haha....even if a female tortoise had sex with a male bee....it may be bizarre, but it would not be homo sex....

Get real...quote a passage from the book that clearly implies homo sex is acceptable...

that is the way the old scriptures spoke. there is no other interpretation that makes sense.

the best quote is the right quote for the only quote we know.