Is Christianity the religion of idolatry?

[Estro Felino]

That is basic Catholic doctrine, even a part of its Credo.

In the Nicene Creed, the wording is that he is "begotten, not made" and "consubstantial with the Father".

In the Apostles' Creed that belief takes the form of a statement that Jesus was conceived "of the Holy Spirit", meaning that there was no human sperm involved in his conception. It is not obvious to me whether a human egg was involved.

All of that amounts to fancy wording to claim that Jesus' existence is literally a miracle given human form, and that he somehow is both the same as god itself and manifest as a human being.

It does not make any logical sense, but that is arguably the point.

Nicene Creed - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Apostles' Creed - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There is nothing logical or rational in dogmas.
You accept them.
Or you don't.

 

[LuisDantas]

Believing Jesus was created by God, as a lesser deity is Arianism.
Heresy.

Heresies. So many of them are noteworthy and arguably better than Nicene Christianity!

It is really worrisome that the word "heresy" took such a dangerous conotation in Christianity.

 

[LuisDantas]

There is nothing logical or rational in dogmas.
You accept them.
Or you don't.

The second option, please. Thank you very much.

 

[LuisDantas]

Come to think of it, there should be a word for "undue worship of dogmas". After all, that is no less dangerous than worship of "non-true" deities.

We could probably use fanaticism, but that is a bit too general. Or fundamentalism, but that is not a defect in some other contexts.

 

[Estro Felino]

The second option, please. Thank you very much.

Nobody forces anyone to believe, any more.
Thank God.
It's better not to believe than being forced to believe.

 

[LuisDantas]

Nobody forces anyone to believe, any more.
Thank God.
It's better not to believe than being forced to be believe.

Yeah. There is many a Brazilian parent that ought to learn that already.

 

[metis]

Believing Jesus was created by God, as a lesser deity is Arianism.
Heresy.

I never said nor implied he was/is a "lesser deity".

Let me use an example: Let's say that I never saw a car before, and I asked you what it was? Then you gave me a listing of all the parts in a car with pictures. OK, is that enough? Not really as you didn't tell me what the "essence" of the car was. IOW, is it just a large collection of parts, and that's all?

If you then say it's used if to transport people, now you'd be getting at its "essence". Thus, Jesus is of the "essence" of God that includes His divinity according to the Council.

 

[Estro Felino]

I never said nor implied he was/is a "lesser deity".

Let me use an example: Let's say that I never saw a car before, and I asked you what it was? Then you gave me a listing of all the parts in a car with pictures. OK, is that enough? Not really as you didn't tell me what the "essence" of the car was. IOW, is it just a large collection of parts, and that's all?

If you then say it's used if to transport people, now you'd be getting at its "essence". Thus, Jesus is of the "essence" of God that includes His divinity according to the Council.

One question: do you believe in the Afterlife?

 

[metis]

One question: do you believe in the Afterlife?

That has nothing to do with the current conversation.

 

[Estro Felino]

That has nothing to do with the current conversation.

It has to do because the Creed speaks of the absence of space and time, and that's what the Afterlife is.
I cannot explain the concept otherwise.

 

[Muffled]

I mean...it's so clear that other religions consider Christianity idolatry, just because we believe that Mary, a woman from Nazareth, is the Mother of God.
That is, she delivered Jesus, Son of God, and part of the Holy Trinity.
But I believe that it's because we believe there is not a clear line between humane and divine, because they permeate each other in a beautiful communication and it is not possible to say where one starts and the other ends.

Jesus is God. As Monsignor Poma, a Catholic priest once said: Jesus went to the Cross to mean that the sacred is the Humane.

Keep in mind, that idolatry is considered a sin in Christianity too, but we consider idolatry the worship of other things, other than God.
There are people that love money more than God and so they worship money as a idol to preserve, forgetting we are all mortals and that money will remain, we will die.
That's idolatry and that's a deadly sin.
Or some other Christians worship power. That's idolatry.

But worshipping Jesus as Son of God is not idolatry. He is our Salvation, our purpose, our meaning. That means that mankind can evolve into a divine form, and Jesus has taught us why.

So many people start crying hearing young Jesus.

I believe that is a misnomer. It makes it sound like Mary produced God when she was simply a vessel for God.

I believe there is no evidence to support that view.

I believe the word permeate is wrongly used. It is not so.

I believe there is nothing humane about crucifying a person.

I believe it is a form of idolatry to consider Jesus a separate spirit from God rather than the Spirit of God in HIm.

 

[Muffled]

But was she? I have read that some Christians believe that she was the mother of the human part, but the divine part was entirely independent of such a biological process. I would be interested in the views of others.

I believe a Spirit is not a part of anything biological but no doubt God is playing His part in the conception by means other than biological.

 

[Muffled]

The Hail Mary prayer says she is...

Hail, Mary, full of grace,​

the Lord is with thee.​

Blessed art thou amongst women​

and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.​

Holy Mary, Mother of God,​

pray for us sinners,​

now and at the hour of our death.​

Amen.​

I believe that is unscriptural. This what Elizabeth actually said: Luke 1:43 And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

 

[Estro Felino]

I believe that is a misnomer. It makes it sound like Mary produced God when she was simply a vessel for God.

Not quite.
We Catholics believe Mary was not a uterus for rent. She was the human being that said yes, so she made that miracle possible. Out of love.

As Dante wrote in Canto XXXIII Paradiso

"Thou Virgin Mother, daughter of thy Son,
Humble and high beyond all other creature,
The limit fixed of the eternal counsel,
Thou art the one who such nobility
To human nature gave, that its Creator
Did not disdain to make himself its creature.
Within thy womb rekindled was the love,
By heat of which in the eternal peace
After such wise this flower has germinated.

 

[LuisDantas]

I believe a Spirit is not a part of anything biological but no doubt God is playing His part in the conception by means other than biological.

Fair enough. Do you however believe that Jesus had a biological, human body regardless of the exact means of its origin?

Just curious. I have no horse in that race.

 

[Little Dragon]

There is nothing logical or rational in dogmas.
You accept them.
Or you don't.

Very fair.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I believe that is unscriptural. This what Elizabeth actually said: Luke 1:43 And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Nice how you leave out the preceding parts:
"And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women." - Luke 1:28 (Some translations say "full of grace".)
"And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb." - Luke 1:42

The Biblical Roots of the Hail Mary - Ascension Press Media

Dr. Sri unpacks the biblical roots of the Hail Mary from the Luke's Gospel and the letters of St. Paul to understand the ultimate focus of this prayer–Jesus

media.ascensionpress.com

 

[Little Dragon]

It has to do because the Creed speaks of the absence of space and time, and that's what the Afterlife is.

No space? That seems difficult to imagine, let alone believe. I had always assumed spirits and ghosts are able to interact with our 4 dimensional reality? However the fact they can apparently ignore solid objects and move through them would suggest to me that they might actually be moving in 5 or more dimensions instead of 4.

Like imagine a 2 dimensional surface, draw a line on that surface, and it would be an impassable wall infinitely high to a 2 dimensional flat land life form, you can only move around it. To us 3 dimensional creatures, it's just a line, and easily traversed by walking over it, in 3 dimensions. To a 2 dimensional creature what we did, would be impossible, from their subjective perspective.

 

[Muffled]

Not quite.
We Catholics believe Mary was not a uterus for rent. She was the human being that said yes, so she made that miracle possible. Out of love.

As Dante wrote in Canto XXXIII Paradiso

"Thou Virgin Mother, daughter of thy Son,
Humble and high beyond all other creature,
The limit fixed of the eternal counsel,
Thou art the one who such nobility
To human nature gave, that its Creator
Did not disdain to make himself its creature.
Within thy womb rekindled was the love,
By heat of which in the eternal peace
After such wise this flower has germinated.

I believe God isn't limited by people. He could have chosen any virgin and the result would have been the same. What He couldn't choose would be an abortionist.

 

[Muffled]

Fair enough. Do you however believe that Jesus had a biological, human body regardless of the exact means of its origin?

Just curious. I have no horse in that race.

I believe it was close enough so that no-one would notice the difference. If it were me the body would have lacked the libido since that would only be a distraction.