Is Christianity the religion of idolatry?

[paarsurrey]

LuisDantas said:
If Jesus was not a man, then what are the gospels talking about when they describe his trial, death and ascension?

Four Gospels were neither authored/narrated/dictated by G-d, nor authored/narrated/dictated by Jesus/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah, right?
They were not even narrated/written by any of the Twelve, right? These were anonymous narratives adopted and then "doctored" by Hellenist-Paulines, right?

Regards

It is Paul who made the credulous "Christians " to believe a "dying, rising, atoning, ascending" deity borrowing it from Hellenism, it has no origin in Jesus/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah, please, right?

Regards

 

[Estro Felino]

LuisDantas said:
If Jesus was not a man, then what are the gospels talking about when they describe his trial, death and ascension?


It is Paul who made the credulous "Christians " to believe a "dying, rising, atoning, ascending" deity borrowing it from Hellenism, it has no origin in Jesus/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah, please, right?

Regards

No...The Gospels too.
John 1. In the beginning there was the Word and the Word was God. Then the Word became flesh and came to dwell among us.

 

[Muffled]

LuisDantas said:
If Jesus was not a man, then what are the gospels talking about when they describe his trial, death and ascension?


It is Paul who made the credulous "Christians " to believe a "dying, rising, atoning, ascending" deity borrowing it from Hellenism, it has no origin in Jesus/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah, please, right?

Regards

I believe that is false. Paul is only repeating what has already been said in the Gospels.

 

[Muffled]

Heresies. So many of them are noteworthy and arguably better than Nicene Christianity!

It is really worrisome that the word "heresy" took such a dangerous conotation in Christianity.

I believe if by better you mean by your own preference then that could be true but not better by Biblical standards.

 

[LuisDantas]

I believe if by better you mean by your own preference then that could be true but not better by Biblical standards.

Biblical standards are set by people. As they should be.

 

[Rival]

I believe that is false. Paul is only repeating what has already been said in the Gospels.

You realise Paul wrote before the Gospels?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Why did Jesus pray to God if he's God? Why did Jesus say he didn't know what the end of times would be but that only God knew if he was God?

Again, "essence" was used at Nicaea as they would have been familiar with the use of "essence".

An excellent book that covers this is Hitchcock's "History of the Catholic Church", whereas he devotes almost a full chapter on the council.

Because He is not God only a pure reflection of God like a mirror facing the sun. Christ denies being God or the Father and it is only a wrong interpretation that is at fault here.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I mean...it's so clear that other religions consider Christianity idolatry, just because we believe that Mary, a woman from Nazareth, is the Mother of God.
That is, she delivered Jesus, Son of God, and part of the Holy Trinity.
But I believe that it's because we believe there is not a clear line between humane and divine, because they permeate each other in a beautiful communication and it is not possible to say where one starts and the other ends.

Jesus is God. As Monsignor Poma, a Catholic priest once said: Jesus went to the Cross to mean that the sacred is the Humane.

Keep in mind, that idolatry is considered a sin in Christianity too, but we consider idolatry the worship of other things, other than God.
There are people that love money more than God and so they worship money as a idol to preserve, forgetting we are all mortals and that money will remain, we will die.
That's idolatry and that's a deadly sin.
Or some other Christians worship power. That's idolatry.

But worshipping Jesus as Son of God is not idolatry. He is our Salvation, our purpose, our meaning. That means that mankind can evolve into a divine form, and Jesus has taught us why.

So many people start crying hearing young Jesus.

Christianity after Christ unfortunately divided into many opposing groups that disagreed strongly on such things as the trinity, Mary and the divinity of Jesus. There are now over 40,000 sects of Christianity and even some such as the Catholics and Protestant’s have fought violent wars against each other killing many over differences. Much of this disunity was caused by fallible church fathers introducing doctrines and superstitions not in harmony with what Jesus taught.

But the idolatry you failed to mention here is the exalting of clergy and priests to that of gods. It is the clergy who have divided Christianity against itself, caused numerous wars involving Christians killing Christians and caused Christians to despise other religions and shun those who do not follow the dictates of their priests. Christians listen to and obey these leaders above Christ’s call to love all. That is one of the worst forms of idolatry which Christians unashamedly practice failing to detect or admit it and so agree to be led astray by those who can appease their ‘itchy ears’.

 

[ppp]

Christianity after Christ unfortunately divided into many opposing groups that disagreed strongly on such things as the trinity, Mary and the divinity of Jesus. There are now over 40,000 sects of Christianity and even some such as the Catholics and Protestant’s have fought violent wars against each other killing many over differences. Much of this disunity was caused by fallible church fathers introducing doctrines and superstitions not in harmony with what Jesus taught.

But the idolatry you failed to mention here is the exalting of clergy and priests to that of gods. It is the clergy who have divided Christianity against itself, caused numerous wars involving Christians killing Christians and caused Christians to despise other religions and shun those who do not follow the dictates of their priests. Christians listen to and obey these leaders above Christ’s call to love all. That is one of the worst forms of idolatry which Christians unashamedly practice failing to detect or admit it and so agree to be led astray by those who can appease their ‘itchy ears’.

You are over playing the role of clergy in the splits in Christianity. Christianity was born to be fractured. Christianity, in its earliest form, did not have a formal clergy as we understand it today. The early Christian communities were characterized by a more egalitarian and informal structure. Leadership roles were present, but they were not as institutionalized or hierarchically structured as in later Christianity. Christianity was largely spread by word of mouth, with the resulting miscommunications and mis interpretations that one finds in a game of telephone. The New Testament is a collection of what is effectively ancient world fan fiction. It is the collection of texts (New Testament) that represent the compromises of the groups who survived the earlier Bible wars as started by Marcione.

There are certainly a lot of evils to lay at the feet of the Clergy, but the Clergy is not the source of the schisms until much much later.

Also, being guided by a council of people who study and interpret the text if one's religion is not idolatry. Or if it is, then Baha'i is idolatrous.

 

[danieldemol]

But the idolatry you failed to mention here is the exalting of clergy and priests to that of gods. It is the clergy who have divided Christianity against itself, caused numerous wars involving Christians killing Christians and caused Christians to despise other religions and shun those who do not follow the dictates of their priests. Christians listen to and obey these leaders above Christ’s call to love all. That is one of the worst forms of idolatry which Christians unashamedly practice failing to detect or admit it and so agree to be led astray by those who can appease their ‘itchy ears’.

Personally I can see the parallels to the Haifa Based Baha'i faith and what you are projecting onto Christianity in my view.

For example you say Christians have made their clergy God whilst the Haifa based Baha'i have declared the 9 members of the Universal House of Justice to be collectively infallible.

You talk about how Christians don't like other christian groups and then mention shunning, but the Haifa based Baha'i shun other Baha'i groups.

 

[ppp]

Personally I can see the parallels to the Haifa Based Baha'i faith and what you are projecting onto Christianity in my view.

For example you say Christians have made their clergy God whilst the Haifa based Baha'i have declared the 9 members of the Universal House of Justice to be collectively infallible.

You talk about how Christians don't like other christian groups and then mention shunning, but the Haifa based Baha'i shun other Baha'i groups.

Group enforced shunning is an evil. IMHO.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You are over playing the role of clergy in the splits in Christianity. Christianity was born to be fractured. Christianity, in its earliest form, did not have a formal clergy as we understand it today. The early Christian communities were characterized by a more egalitarian and informal structure. Leadership roles were present, but they were not as institutionalized or hierarchically structured as in later Christianity. Christianity was largely spread by word of mouth, with the resulting miscommunications and mis interpretations that one finds in a game of telephone. The New Testament is a collection of what is effectively ancient world fan fiction. It is the collection of texts (New Testament) that represent the compromises of the groups who survived the earlier Bible wars as started by Marcione.

There are certainly a lot of evils to lay at the feet of the Clergy, but the Clergy is not the source of the schisms until much much later.

Also, being guided by a council of people who study and interpret the text if one's religion is not idolatry. Or if it is, then Baha'i is idolatrous.

Fair answer. But I believe the clergy are a major barrier between God and man if believers idolise them as they do these days. Many clergy pronounce truth as falsehood and falsehood as truth and their followers follow blindly. One example is the Jewish high priests who said Christ was an imposter thus misleading all their followers even to this day. A number of Prophets have appeared since Christ yet the clergy have turned their followers against them despite the Bible mentioning them.

Baha’is study but are forbidden to interpret. We each study and see with our own eyes and mind not any clergy. Also, according to the Holy Bible, Daniel was told to go his own way when trying to interpret so Christians on a council interpreting when Daniel was told to go his own way says it all. Christians also according to the texts are forbidden from interpreting their books and offloading it as truth.

Add to this Revelation Ch 5 which says the books are ‘sealed’ and ‘no man in heaven or on earth‘ was found to unseal the books. That would include a council which interprets. The only One Who was able to unseal the books was ‘ the Lion of the tribe of Judah’. Unless you have that person on your committee you cannot rely on your committee or council.

We Baha’is believe from our own investigations that Baha’u’llah was that Lion of Judah as He was descended both from Abraham and Jesse the father of David. And He brought with Him the true meanings and His Book the Book of Certitude unsealed the meanings. But the problem remains. Even though we are telling the truth Christians go back to their clergy who tell them as expected that He is a false prophet just like the Jews said of Jesus so Christians, billions of them have missed the second coming because they listened to their clergy.

The early disciples told the truth and so are us Baha’is but it will likely take centuries for Christians to awaken. So to get back to idolatry. The worst form I have witnessed is to believe whatever the priest tells us because he is a fallible error prone human even the pope.

Only Christ is perfect not any one else so I only turn to Him.

 

[ppp]

Fair answer. But I believe the clergy are a major barrier between God and man if believers idolise them as they do these days. Many clergy pronounce truth as falsehood and falsehood as truth and their followers follow blindly. One example is the Jewish high priests who said Christ was an imposter thus misleading all their followers even to this day. A number of Prophets have appeared since Christ yet the clergy have turned their followers against them despite the Bible mentioning them

I appreciate your "fair answer". I do. But your religion literally has a council whose job it is to have opinions, make official commentary, and set standards on your prophet's text and how it should be understood. That is the definition of clergy. That is what you are turning your nose up at in the clergy of other religions

Baha’is study but are forbidden to interpret. We each study and see with our own eyes and mind not any clergy. Also, according to the Holy Bible, Daniel was told to go his own way when trying to interpret so Christians on a council interpreting when Daniel was told to go his own way says it all. Christians also according to the texts are forbidden from interpreting their books and offloading it as truth.

Every time that anyone reads text they are interpreting it. No exclusions. No exceptions. No excuses. Reading text is interpretation. That is what reading text is. Every time that you complain about somebody else's interpretation you are doing so on the basis of your interpretation. You are just pretending your process of interpretation is somehow different from everyone else's. It is not.

All that you have is your interpretation, and your conviction that your interpretation is not an interpretation.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I appreciate your "fair answer". I do. But your religion literally has a council whose job it is to have opinions, make official commentary, and set standards on your prophet's text and how it should be understood. That is the definition of clergy. That is what you are turning your nose up at in the clergy of other religions



Every time that anyone reads text they are interpreting it. No exclusions. No exceptions. No excuses. Reading text is interpretation. That is what reading text is. Every time that you complain about somebody else's interpretation you are doing so on the basis of your interpretation. You are just pretending your process of interpretation is somehow different from everyone else's. It is not.

All that you have is your interpretation, and your conviction that your interpretation is not an interpretation.

Thank you for being so patient. Yes we all individually study the texts and come to our own personal understanding but it is not authoritative. We cannot claim in our community that our understanding is truth. Neither can the Universal House of Justice interpret the Baha’i Teachings. Baha’u’llah, Whom Baha’is believe is the promised Christ returned in the Glory of the Father, we believe He unsealed the Books and that His Words are the Word of God. He appointed His Son Abdul-Baha as Interpreter and after Him His grandson Shoghi Effendi who passed away in 1957. Since then Baha’is have no authoritative interpretations except those mentioned above. We believe these figures were infallible and that their interpretations of the scriptures of all faiths are authoritative. But we have no authoritative interpretations of any scripture since Shoghi Effendi.

Regarding clergy, Baha’u’llah said that good clergy were the light of the world but in most cases such as with Christ they sought to turn the Jews against Jesus. And with His own revelation the religious divines had over 20,000 followers tortured and killed. In His Book of laws He has abolished priesthood.

 

[ppp]

Thank you for being so patient.

You're welcome. But what you wrote was not a response to what I wrote. It was just a rote recital.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Let me add that no divinely revealed religion is idolatrous in its pure and original form. For example, the spiritual teachings of Christ are eternal and everlasting. So the Bible and Quran, the Gita and Buddhist texts are all perfect without doubt. The call to love, wisdom, compassion and being virtuous is the essence of all the religions.

Idolatry occurs when believers stop following the revealed teachings and substitute the priest, the mulla and man made doctrines in place of the original teachings. Then we have division, wars, disunity and things like terrorism. The reason why God sends new Messengers is because over time the intention of the previous messages becomes perverted and overtaken by manmade ideas so then it is time to ‘cleanse the sanctuary, In each and every religion a promise is given of a future messiah because each religion becomes full of idolatry and no longer helps mankind. The Hindus await Kalki, Buddhists Maitreya, Muslims the Qaim, Christians Christ returned as the Father and Jews the Lord of Hosts. But in reality this is just One Person Who is to renew religion and clean it of idolatry. We Baha’is believe this Person to be Baha’u’llah. But in the future another Holy One will come according to humanity’s needs.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Let me add that no divinely revealed religion is idolatrous in its pure and original. For example, the spiritual teachings of Christ are eternal and everlasting. So the Bible and Quran, the Gita and Buddhist texts are all perfect without doubt. The call to love, wisdom, compassion and being virtuous is the essence of all the religions.

Idolatry occurs when believers stop following the revealed teachings and substitute the priest, the mulla and man made doctrines in place of the original teachings. Then we have division, wars, disunity and things like terrorism. The reason why God sends new Messengers is because over time the intention of the previous messages becomes perverted and overtaken by manmade ideas so then it is time to ‘cleanse the sanctuary, In each and every religion a promise is given of a future messiah because each religion becomes full of idolatry and no longer helps mankind. The Hindus await Kalki, Buddhists Maitreya, Muslims the Qaim, Christians Christ returned as the Father and Jews the Lord of Hosts. But in reality this is just One Person Who is to renew religion and clean it of idolatry. We Baha’is believe this Person to be Baha’u’llah. But in the future another Holy One will come according to humanity’s needs.

1. Whether a religion is "divinely revealed" is not something that can be proven. It is an item of faith for those within it.

2. Idolatry is essentially the assignment of a form to God or the gods. This form can be a statue. Or it can simply be the idea that something in nature is god, such as the sun or a person. There are religions that have classic idols, such as Hinduism. And then there are other religions like Christianity which claims to be opposed to idols, but which nevertheless worships a man as God.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I mean...it's so clear that other religions consider Christianity idolatry, just because we believe that Mary, a woman from Nazareth, is the Mother of God.
That is, she delivered Jesus, Son of God, and part of the Holy Trinity.
But I believe that it's because we believe there is not a clear line between humane and divine, because they permeate each other in a beautiful communication and it is not possible to say where one starts and the other ends.

Jesus is God. As Monsignor Poma, a Catholic priest once said: Jesus went to the Cross to mean that the sacred is the Humane.

Keep in mind, that idolatry is considered a sin in Christianity too, but we consider idolatry the worship of other things, other than God.
There are people that love money more than God and so they worship money as a idol to preserve, forgetting we are all mortals and that money will remain, we will die.
That's idolatry and that's a deadly sin.
Or some other Christians worship power. That's idolatry.

But worshipping Jesus as Son of God is not idolatry. He is our Salvation, our purpose, our meaning. That means that mankind can evolve into a divine form, and Jesus has taught us why.

So many people start crying hearing young Jesus.

To answer the question in the thread title... I would say "yes" from a monotheistic context.

Don't remember the exact poll anymore, but some time ago I read about a poll taken in Italy where christians were asked who they prayed to.
Jesus / God was actually only 5th or 6th on the list.
The top 5 was dominated by "saints" and Mary.

Not that I personally care off course, but form a monotheistic perspective, that seems idolatry pur sang.

 

[Estro Felino]

1. Whether a religion is "divinely revealed" is not something that can be proven. It is an item of faith for those within it.

2. Idolatry is essentially the assignment of a form to God or the gods. This form can be a statue. Or it can simply be the idea that something in nature is god, such as the sun or a person. There are religions that have classic idols, such as Hinduism. And then there are other religions like Christianity which claims to be opposed to idols, but which nevertheless worships a man as God.

Many people worship money as God. Idolatry.
Isn't that worse?
Than considering Jesus, God?
At least Jesus was a holy man who loved His people.
Money is the root of all evil.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Many people worship money as God.

I hear people make this statement often.
What does it actually mean to "worship money"?

It seems like it is one of those things that people say, but which actually doesn't mean anything considering the actual meaning of the word "worship".

Money is the root of all evil.

Is it?
When I work a job and get paid for it, am I doing evil?