Is Equality Everyone Being Treated The Same?

[Alceste]

I've seen skinny guys get done in by women. Every man isn't born naturally superior (physically) to every woman. I guess since I lift weights and work out I come from a different perspective. I've alao seen "buff" guys get knocked out by skinny people. Women slapping up guys and men crying. Again it probably depends on geography.

You're thinking of individuals. The rest of us are thinking of populations. Public policy addresses populations, not individuals.

 

[Averroes]

The rules of physiology don't apply in LA. Duh.

Why doesn't it? You guys sit here making generalizations about men and women. I am merely dispelling the tireless myth of physiology. Hell even military personnel would agree with me. That GIVEN ENOUGH TIME MEN AND WOMEN CAN PERFORM THE SAME PHYSICAL FUNCTIONS
. Obviously you guys don't exercise daily.

 

[Averroes]

They don't call it la-la land for nothing.

pray tell where do you reside sir?

 

[Averroes]

1) Men are physiologically different from women
2) ???????????????
3) Therefore physiological assessments for men and women should be identical.
4) Anyone who asks for clarification of 2) does not understand 1), so probably can't do sex.

I think that's his reasoning. Could be wrong.

I am seriously considering the age group this website tends to attract. No offense but this isn't rocket science. Is anyone cognizant of the statement "given an ample enough time?"

I mean aside from crazy special forces units in the military, I don't see an incredibly hard physical regimen the city standardizes for its candidates. Yes maybe naturally there are men who are more physically "proficient" than women but I would rather see a scientific test than anecdotal statements.

As an avid weight lifter who trains females at 24 hour fitness mind you, I have seen the results of consistent training.

 

[Averroes]

You're thinking of individuals. The rest of us are thinking of populations. Public policy addresses populations, not individuals.

Public policy?

The scientific studies that determines these public policies are debateable, not law, or concrete standards we live by or should live by. Again, the example I gave is clear. If you guys truly think men are physically more fit than women please provide several peer-reviewed studies.

 

[Alceste]

I am seriously considering the age group this website tends to attract. No offense but this isn't rocket science. Is anyone cognizant of the statement "given an ample enough time?"

I mean aside from crazy special forces units in the military, I don't see an incredibly hard physical regimen the city standardizes for its candidates. Yes maybe naturally there are men who are more physically "proficient" than women but I would rather see a scientific test than anecdotal statements.

As an avid weight lifter who trains females at 24 hour fitness mind you, I have seen the results of consistent training.

But why should it be more difficult for women than for men to pass the bicep test when upper body strength is a far less important necessity for a police officer's job than legible handwriting?

Perhaps the push-ups test should be done away with and a handwriting test put in its place? Then men would spend hours and hours a week practicing to pass a test that women can pass without batting an eyelash. And, as an added bonus, the skill being tested would actually be relevant to a police officer's duties.

 

[Alceste]

Public policy?

The scientific studies that determines these public policies are debateable, not law, or concrete standards we live by or should live by. Again, the example I gave is clear. If you guys truly think men are physically more fit than women please provide several peer-reviewed studies.

The claim is that men naturally possess greater physical strength on average than women, not that "men are more physically fit". Equally physically fit men and women are physiologically different: men have more innate upper and lower body strength, a higher muscle tissue ratio, larger muscle fibers, a resting metabolic rate that responds better to weight training, snakes, snails and puppy dogs tails.

SpringerLink - European Journal of Applied Physiology and Occupational Physiology, Volume 66, Number 3
A cross-sectional study of muscle strength and mass in 45- to 78-yr-old men and women
Skeletal muscle mass and distribution in 468 men and women aged 18
Effect of strength training on resting metabolic rate and ph... : Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise

I suppose you think men and women should compete in the same categories at the Olympics?

 

[Averroes]

But why should it be more difficult for women than for men to pass the bicep test when upper body strength is a far less important necessity for a police officer's job than legible handwriting?

Perhaps the push-ups test should be done away with and a handwriting test put in its place? Then men would spend hours and hours a week practicing to pass a test that women can pass without batting an eyelash. And, as an added bonus, the skill being tested would actually be relevant to a police officer's duties.

Bicep test? I am a bit confused. I was only listing the physical requirements law enforcements want its candidates to complete. For example:

Push-ups
1 Mile run
Sit ups

I mean, its not hard to run one mile unless you are grossly obese then yes you will run into problems that goes for men and women. Push ups test upper body strength at a basic level. I mean doing 21 push ups is not hard, and 30 sit ups is not hard. All I am saying is that if companies are trying to show equality among sexes whatever candidates need to do to get the job it needs to be across the board. As far as test on academia first off a lot of police candidates out here are college educated so handwriting to them is not an issue and besides that is why their written tests consist of writing a short essay. Honestly I am more concerned about the psychological background of police officers than their ability to write me a ticket. If a racist cop is given the power and authority, he/she can do a lot of damage.

Edit***

Also not just being a racist cop is dangerous but being mentally unstable period especially in this line of work is dangerous

 

[Alceste]

Bicep test? I am a bit confused. I was only listing the physical requirements law enforcements want its candidates to complete. For example:

Push-ups
1 Mile run
Sit ups

I mean, its not hard to run one mile unless you are grossly obese then yes you will run into problems that goes for men and women. Push ups test upper body strength at a basic level. I mean doing 21 push ups is not hard, and 30 sit ups is not hard. All I am saying is that if companies are trying to show equality among sexes whatever candidates need to do to get the job it needs to be across the board. As far as test on academia first off a lot of police candidates out here are college educated so handwriting to them is not an issue and besides that is why their written tests consist of writing a short essay. Honestly I am more concerned about the psychological background of police officers than their ability to write me a ticket. If a racist cop is given the power and authority, he can do a lot of damage

Are you serious? Handwriting is, quite famously, an issue for DOCTORS. Education apparently makes no impact on the quality of a person's handwriting.

Anyway, I agree, the psychological assessment should be weighted much higher than any other qualification, since the job carries with it ample opportunity to exploit vulnerable individuals and a reduced risk of legal consequences for abusive behavior. I bet you wouldn't catch a police officer admitting the latter though - at least not a police public relations officer.

 

[Averroes]

The claim is that men naturally possess greater physical strength on average than women, not that "men are more physically fit". Equally physically fit men and women are physiologically different: men have more innate upper and lower body strength, a higher muscle tissue ratio, larger muscle fibers, a resting metabolic rate that responds better to weight training, snakes, snails and puppy dogs tails.
SpringerLink - European Journal of Applied Physiology and Occupational Physiology,
Volume 66, Number 3
A cross-sectional study of muscle strength and mass in 45- to 78-yr-old men and women
Skeletal muscle mass and distribution in 468 men and women aged 18
Effect of strength training on resting metabolic rate and ph... : Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise

I suppose you think men and women should compete in the same categories at the Olympics?

Thanks for the links!

Now, I will admit I am no genius when it comes to physiology research however and I am familiar with research nonetheless but let us go down the line shall we?

1) The Springerlink research was very interesting!

Although I would prefer the actual research to see which research methods especially the statistical analysis formulations they used I was glad to read it. Now one of the problems with reading abstracts is it doesn't give you an in-depth look at the sample. For instance it did give me an idea of age-gender relationships, but the research doesn't indicate height as a factor in SM (Skeletal Muscle) and LBM (Lean Body Mass). This being (I assume) a cross-sectional study, it did indicate that there was no significant gender difference in CSA (Cross-Sectional Area) for elbow flexion and knee extension.

The abstract also admits that it is difficult to find a "true biological difference, in larger muscle fibers (in men) rather a difference in physical activity."

2) Cross-Sectional study on muscle strength in the 45-78 male female population

The biggest significance (and the most obvious) is that upon testing MM (Muscle Mass) the research article notes that Muscle Mass is the biggest determining factor of the age-gender related differences. It also notes that with age, MM decreases so yes, you'll have varying results upon testing these age-groups. The biggest standout in this study is age and Muscle Mass. Also, it tested a sample of 200! although it seems like a lot it really isn't.

3) Skeletal Muscle Mass and distribution in 468 men and women age ranging from 18-88

Another interesting article!

I was pleased to read that this study took into consideration not only age and gender, but also height and weight. Although it did indicate gender differences in the upper body (men having larger upper body ( a significance of P.< 0.001) skeletal muscle, it did allude to the fact that there was a curvilinear difference in lower body of Skeletal Muscle to weight gain. I was a bit confused about "fifth decade" not sure if they are referring to age or time and if its the latter, I'm wondering if this was a longitudinal study. I mean, they performed an MRI but I'm wondering if apart from the MRI they applied a questionnare to the subjects and not test physical ability.

The last link I didn't read.

 

[Averroes]

Are you serious? Handwriting is, quite famously, an issue for DOCTORS. Education apparently makes no impact on the quality of a person's handwriting.

Anyway, I agree, the psychological assessment should be weighted much higher than any other qualification, since the job carries with it ample opportunity to exploit vulnerable individuals and a reduced risk of legal consequences for abusive behavior. I bet you wouldn't catch a police officer admitting the latter though - at least not a police public relations officer.

I am not saying handwriting is completely irrelevant, I am merely weighing against other factors I deem more important.

 

[Alceste]

Thanks for the links!

Now, I will admit I am no genius when it comes to physiology research however and I am familiar with research nonetheless but let us go down the line shall we?

1) The Springerlink research was very interesting!

Although I would prefer the actual research to see which research methods especially the statistical analysis formulations they used I was glad to read it. Now one of the problems with reading abstracts is it doesn't give you an in-depth look at the sample. For instance it did give me an idea of age-gender relationships, but the research doesn't indicate height as a factor in SM (Skeletal Muscle) and LBM (Lean Body Mass). This being (I assume) a cross-sectional study, it did indicate that there was no significant gender difference in CSA (Cross-Sectional Area) for elbow flexion and knee extension.

The abstract also admits that it is difficult to find a "true biological difference, in larger muscle fibers (in men) rather a difference in physical activity."

2) Cross-Sectional study on muscle strength in the 45-78 male female population

The biggest significance (and the most obvious) is that upon testing MM (Muscle Mass) the research article notes that Muscle Mass is the biggest determining factor of the age-gender related differences. It also notes that with age, MM decreases so yes, you'll have varying results upon testing these age-groups. The biggest standout in this study is age and Muscle Mass. Also, it tested a sample of 200! although it seems like a lot it really isn't.

3) Skeletal Muscle Mass and distribution in 468 men and women age ranging from 18-88

Another interesting article!

I was pleased to read that this study took into consideration not only age and gender, but also height and weight. Although it did indicate gender differences in the upper body (men having larger upper body ( a significance of P.< 0.001) skeletal muscle, it did allude to the fact that there was a curvilinear difference in lower body of Skeletal Muscle to weight gain. I was a bit confused about "fifth decade" not sure if they are referring to age or time and if its the latter, I'm wondering if this was a longitudinal study. I mean, they performed an MRI but I'm wondering if apart from the MRI they applied a questionnare to the subjects and not test physical ability.

The last link I didn't read.

I'm sure you're aware - being an advocate of research-based opinion - that the vast majority of published research is only available by paid subscription, so the complete studies an abstract summarizes, including the methods and findings, are available if you would like to read them. You only have to cough up a little bit of cash. I basically just provided the first page of hits from a google scholar search. You can tailor the search to produce only complete, free studies if you're interested.

 

[blackout]

Are you serious? Handwriting is, quite famously, an issue for DOCTORS. Education apparently makes no impact on the quality of a person's handwriting.

Pharmacists must be required to take advanced cipher courses.

 

[Averroes]

I'm sure you're aware - being an advocate of research-based opinion - that the vast majority of published research is only available by paid subscription, so the complete studies an abstract summarizes, including the methods and findings, are available if you would like to read them. You only have to cough up a little bit of cash. I basically just provided the first page of hits from a google scholar search. You can tailor the search to produce only complete, free studies if you're interested.

Hey these days times are tough. LoL

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Hey y'all. Being in the dance industry for over 20 years, I can safely agree with averroes. Men and women have different physical ability, but men aren't superior physically to women across the board....hell no.

At my daughters dojo, like I said earlier, men struggle in a horse stance where they have to do a stationary squat for 30 minutes. Women have tended to do better in that and in lower body work.

We got hip strength. WHOOT.

But when it comes to the minimum requirements, it should be across the board. In dance, we don't have different physical tests for men and women....you just do it.

Even though everybody knows that women are naturally more flexible than men.

See?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I've seen skinny guys get done in by women. Every man isn't born naturally superior (physically) to every woman. I guess since I lift weights and work out I come from a different perspective. I've alao seen "buff" guys get knocked out by skinny people. Women slapping up guys and men crying. Again it probably depends on geography.

There are always exceptions and ranges, but when formulating standards, it only makes sense to use a typical, or average, baseline. Certainly, there are men who can't run a mile and women who run marathons, and men who can only lift 50 lbs and women who can lift 300, but when it comes to defining a standard of measurment for determining average physical fitness, physiologically, men are stronger, are faster, can jump higher, have more endurance, etc.

If the goal is to weed out candidates who meet a minimum standard of physical fitness, different standards must be used for men and women.

Again, if there is a specific physical requirement necessary to perform a job, then, by all means, this should be required of all candidates. However, the type of tests you're talking about don't address specific requirements.

 

[Songbird]

There are always exceptions and ranges, but when formulating standards, it only makes sense to use a typical, or average, baseline. Certainly, there are men who can't run a mile and women who run marathons, and men who can only lift 50 lbs and women who can lift 300, but when it comes to defining a standard of measurment for determining average physical fitness, physiologically, men are stronger, are faster, can jump higher, have more endurance, etc.

If the goal is to weed out candidates who meet a minimum standard of physical fitness, different standards must be used for men and women.

Again, if there is a specific physical requirement necessary to perform a job, then, by all means, this should be required of all candidates. However, the type of tests you're talking about don't address specific requirements.

And in almost every physical category, record-winners are men. Running, weight-lifting, various sports, the Olympics, etc. Given the same time and training, male professional athletes outperform females.

 

[ChristineES]

Another thing about equality is intelligence. Some people are just smarter than others. Some kids do very well in school with no help, others do average and need extra help, and there are others who need a lot of extra help. We can't change that.

 

[Averroes]

Another thing about equality is intelligence. Some people are just smarter than others. Some kids do very well in school with no help, others do average and need extra help, and there are others who need a lot of extra help. We can't change that.

Meh that's been refuted. Kids being smarter depends on environement. Hence is why Asians here are attributed as being the most sucessful academically. Asian kids are raised in strict households where extracirricular activities are secondary. Mathematics especially Calculus, is taught at young ages. Intelligence is subjective. Academic intelligence is overplayed. Nobody is smarter than anybody in an isolated situation

 

[McBell]

Meh that's been refuted. Kids being smarter depends on environement. Hence is why Asians here are attributed as being the most sucessful academically. Asian kids are raised in strict households where extracirricular activities are secondary. Mathematics especially Calculus, is taught at young ages. Intelligence is subjective. Academic intelligence is overplayed. Nobody is smarter than anybody in an isolated situation

Source please.