Is Equality Everyone Being Treated The Same?

[Averroes]

One could argue that the objective of the fitness evaluation is to weed out everyone below a certain percentile without inhibiting the equal opportunity for both men and women to become officers, it makes sense to treat the genders differently because you would get the same percentile range of both genders. And seriously, how much upper body strength does a person really need to hoist donuts all day?

While you make subliminal sarcasm to the very people you call when you're in trouble, I again disagree. Unless this percentile theory of yours has scientific validation, it still doesn't back up your idea. Local law enforcement physical requirements are not strenuous. For physical disabilities there are accomodations however severe disabilities like a leg amputee I would doubt they have a chance in being a field cop but that is my own assumption on that matter.

The point is, which has now become redundant at this point, is that candidates going for the same job the standards should be the same across the board period!

Last night at work I was speaking to a female cop and I noticed she wore some earrings. I asked her "Your department lets you wear earrings?" Of course officially police officers aren't supposed to but they let the women slide, all this according to her. I asked her "what about men?" No! She said. I asked her why. She shrugged in an "I don't know"

My assumption is that despite uniform appearance and presentation I guess there is an unwritten cultural rule for both genders. And even though something as trivial as earrings is what leads me to believe that in certain areas in the workplace equality even in the strict sense is illusory.

For most women the problem of equality is financial, then treatment, then attitudes and behaviors and stereotypes. I don't believe as a society we have completely understood the term.

 

[Averroes]

Well...at my daughter's Karate dojo, the physical test for the Black Belt is the same across the board.

3 mile run
50 push ups
50 sit ups
Squat in a "horse stance" for 30 minutes

Men. Women. Adult. Teen. Child.

Men typically struggle a bit in the horse stance, where women typically struggle in the push ups.

So what? They pass though. Everybody meets the standard and all candidates are SUPPOSED to meet the standard.

that is my point. Have the same standards for everyone across gender and age. I think physical tests on the local level are standardize to test a persons basic physical abilities. It is not hard to do 50 push ups and do a 3 mile run if you give a person ample enough time. If they fail they just aren't physically prepared.

I mean there is a difference between the physical regimen of our military and local law enforcement so I would assume the requirements are going to be different. People don't understand that when it comes to those types of physical test, gender means diddly squat especially if you train hard. Showing up ill prepared is the reason why most people fail. Now that I said that please take a moment to hear the wise words of a small wise man please pay special attention to the statement after Luke says "I don't believe it" I say this line to people who psyche themselves out doing physical tests:

[youtube]46iBFQwRqi4[/youtube]
That is where you fail. - YouTube

 

[ChristineES]

There are people who will only do the minimum. Those requirements I had to follow in the Navy were just to "pass", there were different levels- I did and tried to do more than the minimum whenever we had our quarterly fitness exams. It is like only trying to get a "C" in a class rather than try to get an A. If they raise the minimum, it is probably a safe bet that the majority of people will be able to do it.

 

[Alceste]

While you make subliminal sarcasm to the very people you call when you're in trouble, I again disagree. Unless this percentile theory of yours has scientific validation, it still doesn't back up your idea. Local law enforcement physical requirements are not strenuous. For physical disabilities there are accomodations however severe disabilities like a leg amputee I would doubt they have a chance in being a field cop but that is my own assumption on that matter.

The point is, which has now become redundant at this point, is that candidates going for the same job the standards should be the same across the board period!

Last night at work I was speaking to a female cop and I noticed she wore some earrings. I asked her "Your department lets you wear earrings?" Of course officially police officers aren't supposed to but they let the women slide, all this according to her. I asked her "what about men?" No! She said. I asked her why. She shrugged in an "I don't know"

My assumption is that despite uniform appearance and presentation I guess there is an unwritten cultural rule for both genders. And even though something as trivial as earrings is what leads me to believe that in certain areas in the workplace equality even in the strict sense is illusory.

For most women the problem of equality is financial, then treatment, then attitudes and behaviors and stereotypes. I don't believe as a society we have completely understood the term.

Am I in trouble? lol. I don't think so. Given that one of the important strategic objectives of any police force is to have a reasonable amount of representation from any given demographic, including women, it makes sense that the recruitment process be tweaked to ensure it does not treat one demographic group (e.g. white males) preferentially.

Given that physical strength is pretty low on the list of qualities required by a police officer to execute her daily duties, "X number of push-ups in X number of minutes" is a requirement that inherently favours one demographic (men) over another (women). A "legible handwriting" test, if there were one, is an example of a requirement that would inherently favour women over men - and surely it is far more important for police officers - the vast majority of whom do nothing but issue citations all day - to have legible handwriting than big biceps. But there isn't a handwriting test. So, we can see that the recruitment process is already inherently preferential to one demographic regardless of the actual requirements of the job. If the "big biceps" requirement is different for women than for men, and that difference helps mitigate the preferential treatment white men receive by design in the recruitment process, it helps to advance equal opportunity.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

that is my point. Have the same standards for everyone across gender and age. I think physical tests on the local level are standardize to test a persons basic physical abilities.

Unless a specific physical requirement is necessary, i.e., a job involves being able to pick up a piece of equipment that weighs 100 lbs, so all applicants must be able to lift 100 lbs, then physical requirements are just meant as a basic way of filtering out people who may be too unfit for the job in general.

This being the case, it is ridiculous to make men and women meet the same basic fitness standards, as men being larger, with more muscle mass, larger lungs, and larger hearts, the baseline standards of strenth, speed, and endurance for a man in average physical shape will always be higher than that of the average woman.

Additionally, for some things, the equivalent measure for a man and woman doesn't imply the same level of fitness. A man who can max bench press 100 lbs is fairly weak, whereas a woman who can bench press 100 lbs is in good shape.

 

[Alceste]

Unless a specific physical requirement is necessary, i.e., a job involves being able to pick up a piece of equipment that weighs 100 lbs, so all applicants must be able to lift 100 lbs, then physical requirements are just meant as a basic way of filtering out people who may be too unfit for the job in general.

This being the case, it is ridiculous to make men and women meet the same basic fitness standards, as men being larger, with more muscle mass, larger lungs, and larger hearts, the baseline standards of strenth, speed, and endurance for a man in average physical shape will always be higher than that of the average woman.

Additionally, for some things, the equivalent measure for a man and woman doesn't imply the same level of fitness. A man who can max bench press 100 lbs is fairly weak, whereas a woman who can bench press 100 lbs is in good shape.

Exactly - the ideal would be a comprehensive physical evaluation that ranks the fitness percentile of each candidate in the context of their entire demographic. If that is not possible or practical, then the introduction of other relevant tests that favour women as much as an upper body strength evaluation favours men - such as handwriting, organizational ability, communication and conflict resolution skills.

 

[Averroes]

Unless a specific physical requirement is necessary, i.e., a job involves being able to pick up a piece of equipment that weighs 100 lbs, so all applicants must be able to lift 100 lbs, then physical requirements are just meant as a basic way of filtering out people who may be too unfit for the job in general.

This being the case, it is ridiculous to make men and women meet the same basic fitness standards, as men being larger, with more muscle mass, larger lungs, and larger hearts, the baseline standards of strenth, speed, and endurance for a man in average physical shape will always be higher than that of the average woman.

Additionally, for some things, the equivalent measure for a man and woman doesn't imply the same level of fitness. A man who can max bench press 100 lbs is fairly weak, whereas a woman who can bench press 100 lbs is in good shape.

Seriously?

Men being larger doesn't amount to physical strength or capability. I guess the thought depends on where you come from. In Los Angeles its different. Anyway I will comment more later

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Seriously?

Men being larger doesn't amount to physical strength or capability. I guess the thought depends on where you come from. In Los Angeles its different. Anyway I will comment more later

Seriously?

Did you ever come close to trying to understand the point?

 

[Songbird]

Seriously?

Men being larger doesn't amount to physical strength or capability. I guess the thought depends on where you come from. In Los Angeles its different. Anyway I will comment more later

That made me laugh. You really think men and women have the same physical capabilities?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

That made me laugh. You really think men and women have the same physical capabilities?

The rules of physiology don't apply in LA. Duh.

 

[Songbird]

The rules of physiology don't apply in LA. Duh.

What a magical place.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

What a magical place.

They don't call it la-la land for nothing.

 

[Averroes]

That made me laugh. You really think men and women have the same physical capabilities?

Glar you're not my wife

 

[Averroes]

Glad r you're not my wife

Meaning Glad you are not my wife buy um yeah

 

[Averroes]

They don't call it la-la land for nothing.

I know what kind of ppace I am in

. Not trying to be offensive

 

[Songbird]

Meaning Glad you are not my wife buy um yeah

You keep making me laugh. How is us being not married to each other relevant to the discussion?

 

[Alceste]

You keep making me laugh. How is us being not married to each other relevant to the discussion?

1) Men are physiologically different from women
2) ???????????????
3) Therefore physiological assessments for men and women should be identical.
4) Anyone who asks for clarification of 2) does not understand 1), so probably can't do sex.

I think that's his reasoning. Could be wrong.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

1) Men are physiologically different from women
2) ???????????????
3) Therefore physiological assessments for men and women should be identical.
4) Anyone who asks for clarification of 2) does not understand 1), so probably can't do sex.

I think that's his reasoning. Could be wrong.

Far too generous.

 

[McBell]

Far too generous.

Agreed

 

[Averroes]

That made me laugh. You really think men and women have the same physical capabilities?

I've seen skinny guys get done in by women. Every man isn't born naturally superior (physically) to every woman. I guess since I lift weights and work out I come from a different perspective. I've alao seen "buff" guys get knocked out by skinny people. Women slapping up guys and men crying. Again it probably depends on geography.